www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Old-Ritualists Forum Old Catholics & Old Orthodox

I'm Old Orthodox, but I've just learned there are Old Catholics. Are they the same like the Eastern Rite relates to the EO and OO Churches?

Not at all, they are like Episcopalians of a different ethnicity and are reformed, whereas the "old orthodox" are ultraconservatives who rejected any reforms. Nothing in common. Don't confuse "Old catholics" with the traditionalist Latin Catholics.

Oh. haha! Well, alrighty then.

You ask a very interesting question: are the Old Catholics like the Old Orthodox? I have studied each over the last 40 years and can offer some comparisons.

1.) Each rejected Church teachings of their period - Old Believers rejected Nikonian changes in ritual and Old Catholics rejected papal infallibility proclaimed in Vatican I Council.

2.) Each were and are a minority compared to their own mother Church, with Old Catholics even smaller in number than Old Believers.

3.) Each split into more sects over the years. The Old Orthodox divided into the priestless and the priested Churches while the Old Catholics separated into a more orthodox faction (the Polish National Catholics) and a more modern denomination (the European Union of Utrecht with women priests and gay marriages).

4.) Old Catholics are not like the Eastern Rite (Eastern Catholics) and the EO or OO Churches; they have not reunited with their original or sister Church (Roman Catholicism). However, some Old Believers (the "edinoverie") did accept the established Orthodox Church as "people of the same Faith" and yet kept their traditional rite like Eastern Catholics.

5.) Old Catholics are not isolationist whereas some Old Orthodox (various priestless or bezpopovtsy Old Believers) do separate themselves from the outside world.

6.) Old Catholics adopt the language and culture of the country they are in, but Old Believers - especially the priestless - retain use of the Old Slavonic language and customs whenever possible.

These are generalizations, so there may be local exceptions.

There are/were some Russian Old Believers who did enter into communion with the Catholic Church. So they were Old Orthodox in communion with Rome and can, I suppose, be called Old Catholics. But they should not be confused with the Old Catholics that rejected Vatican I.

Am I correct in my understanding that there are 2 "Old Catholic" groups? One that is ultraliberal and the other rejects Vatican I? Or are they one in the same? Or...?

Sorry, I'm trying to understand, but this is all quite confusing to a newbie.

There are two Old Catholic groups. One is the Union of Utrecht and the other is the Union of Scranton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_Church

http://www.utrechter-union.org/page/157/home

http://www.unionofscranton.org/uploads/Declaration_of_Scranton3.pdf

http://www.unionofscranton.org/uplo...f_Scranton_FINAL_PNCC_Synod_Oct_2010.pdf

Let me try and clarify a bit further (or hopelessly perplex Stan ).

Luke/bergschlawiner and Tom/Polish American are speaking of those who are properly termed 'Old Catholics' - in its historical and broadest usage, it would encmpass the Polish National Catholics - but the two are no longer one. As noted, the main body of Old Catholics has divided multiple times over the years, since its origins in the 19th century.

1. At present, as Tom has said, the Polish National Catholic Church - which had its origins in the US and essentially exists only in the US and Canada (an attempt to transplant itself back to Europe was not very successful and, I believe, it no longer exists there) is very traditional in its theology and praxis, except that it allows married men to be ordained to both the priesthood (non-traditional for Western Catholics) and its episcopacy.

The relationship between the PNCC and the Latin Catholic Church is very good and PNCC faithful are allowed to commune in Catholic churches if the need presents itself (i.e., they have no access to their own clergy or church). (The present-day PNCC incorporates several other Churches also of Slavic origin - the Lithuanian, Croat, Czech, Slovak, and Bohemian National Catholic Churches come immediately to mind. Most were at least nominally aligned with the PNCC from their inception, but have since been formally incorporated into it.)

The PNCC and those Churches came into existence later than the Old Catholics. They were an outgrowth of the ethnic insularity of some Irish and German Latin Catholic bishops in the early 20th century who were disinclined to provide ethnic clergy for their Slavic faithful. The resultant separation was not unlike that which, at about the same time in history, drove many Eastern Catholics in the US back to the Orthodox Churches from which their ancestors had come. The connection of the PNCC to the Old Catholics of the Utrecht Communion was realized when the PNCC sought episcopal ordination from valid lines.

2. The Old Catholics of the Utrecht Communion were themselves a pretty conservative/traditional body until about a decade or so ago, which is when they began to entertain the idea of female priests. Their orientation has since broadened to include an openness to same-sex marriage and they've also allowed female ordination to the episcopacy.

3. I should note here that there had been hundreds of splits from the Old Catholics over the years and very many of those bodies, (which I tend to term 'Old Catholic-type' Churches) did not preserve the same measure of traditional praxis and theology as did the Utrecht Communion prior to its liberal shift of recent years. There are, however, a couple of the 'Old Catholic-type' Churches in the US which are still very theologically conservative.

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4. Now, as to Nelson's point. He's speaking of a very small phenomenon within the Eastern Catholic Church - within the Russian Greek-Catholic Church in particular. 'Old Catholics' is not a good term to use in this instance. The more correct usage would be 'Catholic Old Ritualists'.

The faithful of whom he speaks are Popovtsy who entered into communion with the Catholic Church. There were a number of them, probably as many as 1,500, who entered communion, together with their presbyters, in Russia in the early 20th century. It is very likely that the vast majority died in the early days of the Bolshevik and later Communist governments. A small group who escaped and resettled in Harbin, China, subsequently emigrated to the US after China came under Communist rule. They settled in Oregon, in the same communities as the Orthodox Popovotsy and Bezpopovotsy. A sole Catholic priest served them according to the Old Rite for several years; after his death, they were eventually reabsorbed into Popovotsy Churches.

There remains, in St Petersburg, a single priest and parish of Catholic Old Ritualists who serve according to the Pre-Nikonian Rites.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you, Neil (Irish Melkite), for your clarification and in-depth explanation of Old Catholics. You have a special way of condensing and summarizing a lot of information into a more understandable format. However, I regret that some of what you wrote about the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) IN POLAND - "an attempt to transplant itself back to Europe was not very successful and, I believe, it no longer exists there" - is not correct.

The PNCC does have a sister Church in Poland, the "Polish Catholic Church" (PCC), which still exists and belongs to the Union of Utrecht. It dates back to the 1920s when the PNCC helped to start it, but it has never been large (but neither is the PNCC which has about 25,000 members). The Polish Catholic Church claims about 20,000 members in 80 parishes with 111 priests. It has not been successful because Poles are very strong Roman Catholics and because there was an Old Catholic Church already in Poland when the PCC appeared. That is the Mariavite Old Catholic Church which has a checkered past. Nevertheless, the PCC has survived.

The PNCC is also in communion with and has assisted the Nordic Catholic Church (NCC) in Norway which was founded in 1999. The NCC has five parishes in Norway and a developing community in Stockholm, Sweden, and is a member of the Union of Scranton.

Tom,

First, thanks both for the kind words, my friend, and most especially for all the time and effort you put into providing us with updates and topical info on Old Ritualists/Believers.

Thanks too for the PNCC info. I was under the impression that all ties between the PNCC and PCC had been broken when Utrecht and the PNCC parted over Utrecht's deviation from its traditional and conservative roots. When I said that 'it (the PCC) no longer exists there', I meant in terms of a body in union with the PNCC. Is that essentially true?

I didn't mention the Mariavites because their history is, as you described 'checkered' - an understatement. When the Old Catholics of Utrecht were still essentially a very 'Catholic' ecclesia, the Mariavites were already very much on the fringe (a place they've been virtually since their inception) and I figured trying to explain them would be a thread in itself.

The NCC is very interesting - I had not heard of it previously and would never have thought of a connection between such a Church and the PNCC. Clearly, I need to update my knowledge base on the PNCC.

Many years,

Neil

With the PNCC withdrawal of membership in the Union of Utrecht (UU), the relationship between the PNCC and PCC (which remains in the Union) is an ambiguous one. I am not a member of the PNCC nor do I receive copies of its publications, but I did attend its 2010 National Synod in Niagara Falls, Canada, where the question arose. The outgoing Prime Bishop stated that the PNCC retains communion with the PCC although the PCC has yet to decide if it will remain in the UU. The Union of Utrecht continues to list the PCC as one of its member Churches, and the Polish Catholic Church for its part remains a member of the Union even though it rejects women’s “ordination” and gay “marriages.” How long that relationship will last remains to be seen.

You stated that "the Mariavites were already very much on the fringe (a place they've been virtually since their inception)". Please let me amend that. In 1909, while the foundress of the Mariavites, Sister Maria Frances Kozlowska or Mateczka (Little Mother), was alive, the Dutch Old Catholic bishops of Holland consecrated a bishop for them - John Maria Michael Kowalski - and accepted them in the Union of Utrecht. However, after her death in 1920, Kowalski took the Mariavites into absolute heresy with "mystical marriages" between priests and nuns (the children of those marriages were said to be born without Original Sin), women priests and bishops, belief in Mateczka as the Third Person of the Trinity, and the "People's Mass" in which lay members supposedly consecrated bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. In 1924, the Old Catholics severed relations with the Mariavites.

Today, there are two Mariavite Churches in Poland. The larger one, the Mariavite Old Catholic Church of Plock, with about 25,000 members rejects Kowalski's reforms and has observer or nonmember status with the UU. The smaller group, the Catholic Church of the Mariavites in Felicjanow, with about 2,000 members still accepts Kowalski's reforms. I visited the headquarters of each Church in 2007 and talked with their Archbishops. I think the future of each Church is doubtful.

I apologize if this is too long and more information than you probably want or need, but I have been interested in the PNCC, the PCC, the Mariavites, and the Old Believers since the late 1960s when I did my Ph.D. studies (I never completed my dissertation). Anyone still interested in the Mariavites might read THE THIRD ADAM by Jerzy Peterkiewicz which was published in 1975 by Oxford University Press. It is the definitive book in English on the Mariavites, a strange and exotic sect which shocked and disgusted many Poles then and now.

Thank you for the information. However, which one was it that Nelson_Chase was referring to that rejected Vatican I? Would it be the Catholic Old Ritualists or would they fall under the Byzantine/Eastern Catholic Church banner?

"Old Catholics" are the ones who rejected Vatican One and split.

Catholic Old Ritualists is a shorthand way of referring to the Russians using the pre-Nikonian Russian Orthodox Rite who are in union with Rome. This is currently a very small group, one parish in St. Petersburg, as I understand it. I can't really speak to their understanding of Vatican I, but at the least they accept it to the degree that it hasn't caused them to break Communion with Rome. They are broadly speaking Byzantine-rite/Eastern Catholics (not to be confused with the more limited group of "Byzantine Catholics" who are Rusyns.)

(Old Catholics are of Latin, not Eastern rite heritage.)

Ahh... Ok. I understand now. Thank you all for helping me understand the differences. I think I've got it now..