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Greetings, John Gibson!

I haven't visited this forum in a couple weeks or so and have missed all of the excitement! Welcome to Byzcath.org! I went to read your conversion story and realized that I believe that I read it quite some time ago! Hasn't it been on the Envoy site for several months or perhaps even a year or so? Your conversion story struck a chord with me when I read it before because I too was in the occult though under the illusion that I was still somehow Christian. Don't ask ... I now know that I was really confused. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, since you have a mystical bend in your nature, you will really love the Eastern theology. True, the Western Church has its mystics but mysticism is the very nature of Eastern spirituality (Eastern Catholic and Orthodox) so we have tons of mystics! I really, really love and respect the Western Church but I have definitely found a home in the Byzantine Catholic Church and am SO in love with my Eastern Christian faith.

Just 3 years ago, I was a "Christo-Pagan" and even had a website explaining my hodge-podge of beliefs. I have loved studying world religions as well as some of the "old religions". Unfortunately, I also ended up with cafeteria spirituality. A little bit of everything made up my belief system. Thankfully, I have always known about Church history and that the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church are Apostolic so I said that if I ever decided to join a church, it would most likely be the Catholic Church.

God's timer obviously went off in me and His Grace went to work by stripping me of nearly everything I ever believed. I experienced a spiritual crisis that made me go back to the very basics. I dumped EVERYTHING for the sake of starting over and began by reading about Judaism. My love for Jesus Christ prevented me from accepting the Jewish arguments against Christianity but I did appreciate the basic and mystical Jewish theology. From there I ventured into Catholicism and Orthodoxy and loved everything I read from both Churches. I took one step into Anglican Land for the sake of openmindedness but realized I was losing the Apostolic lineage so I went back to Catholic and Orthodox. I ended up with Catholic because I came to believe in unity under the Pope.

I was unhappy to find that our local Roman parish was not like the one on EWTN and it was way too far for me to travel to a Tridentine Mass approved by the Roman bishop. I remembered visiting a Byzantine Church back in the early 80s that had haunted me all through the years so I got to work on the Internet and began reading everything I could find about Byzantines. I also found the new location of Annunciation Byzantine Catholic Church and visited them on my birthday August 11, 2002. Your description of how your first visit impacted you was very similar to how it was for me. In fact, I loved it so much that I was baptized, chrismated, and received first Communion on Pentecost weekend this year (June 6 & 7). SusieFreckleFace is my godmother.

So ... a big hearty welcome to you, John. I am so pleased to see how many people are discovering the beauty of our church. I am so in love with my faith and it continues to grow. I know that it will be the same for you.

Your sister in Christ, Michelle

I wrote:
Err, it was actually June 7 and 8.

Well,

The last month has been interesting. I flew down to Texas to move my Mother up to our house (we did an addition and added on a room and bathroom for her.)

For the most part we (the family and myself) have been sticking close to home due to the move and some sick pets, so we haven't gotten over to the Byz Church in a while.

So last Sunday (yesterday) we finally were able to make it (actually if I really pushed it we could make it all the time, however with the kids, I am not pushing it)

Mass was wonderful as usual, but found myself getting lost in the Liturgy, the kids want to sit, my eldest complains about standing.

I know this post completely runs all over the place with no real theme or message or thought to it, but hey it is after a hectic advent/Christmas/holiday/Yule/Solstice/Hanakua/Kwanza etc. (just trying to be pc here <grin>)

Anyhow... many prayers are needed for me so if you could storm heaven.

John

John,

I was Chrismated on Theophany Sunday 2002. My wife Chris took an extra year and was Chrismated on Theophany Sunday 2003. If she had objected to my going ahead I would have waited because her issue was that she really had been emotionally abused for many years by the various Protestant Churches I had served. She just needed to get used to the idea of submitting herself to the Church. She always attended with me.

BTW I don't know why your eldest wants to sit. Perhaps she feels conspicuous. Teens do feel awkward at her age. Why not try standing by the wall instead of in the middle of the Church? She might not object to standing that way.

Dan Lauffer

We go to the middle and get a pew for the family, I will continue to stand. Right now I am holding back a bit due to the fact that I don't want to go into this full bore, but want to bring the family into it also.

My wife says this is better than me having an affair for my midlife crisis (grin.)

I told her it was cheaper than an affair because I would have to buy all the stuff that goes with it. Now all I have to do is buy the byzantine prayer books

Again, it is one of these things where I simply look and ask, "Why oh Why Lord are you doing this to me?" Our local parish does have three wonderful orthodox priests, but frankly am more at home with the Divine Liturgy.

BTW, Dan, I was at Annunciation when the Bishop was there, one of the things that really threw me off was the choir. While they have nice voices, in a way it also cuts down on the participation by the laity, in the chant, due to the fact that we don't know the settings that they are going to sing. This has been my only drawback (and a very minor one at that) since I started attending the parish.

John

John,

I agree. I alternate between talking with Father and Cantor Tim, both of whom I love dearly, and just letting it go. I think it's a common bump in the road for Churches that develop good choirs. My own preference is to sing what I know. But then I didn't know anything when I first arrived. What to do? What to do?

"BTW, Dan, I was at Annunciation when the Bishop was there, one of the things that really threw me off was the choir. While they have nice voices, in a way it also cuts down on the participation by the laity, in the chant, due to the fact that we don't know the settings that they are going to sing. This has been my only drawback (and a very minor one at that) since I started attending the parish."

Dan Lauffer

Let me just say that it is a minor drawback. In my western rite parish the Music Minister (for lack of a better term) has a performance problem i.e. He thinks that all the Church is a stage. He really has a nice voice, but the mindset is one of performance rather than one of Worship. I didn't see this is the Annunciation Choir. I truly believe that they were wanting to worship, but the drawback is that when the people in the pews don't know what the setting is you have a drop in participation, which is something that shouldn't happen.

The first Sunday I was there the thought that went through my mind was annunciation was the Church envisioned by the Vatican II reforms by the council fathers. The active chanting by the laity is something that just blew me away.

John

John,

That is a beautiful insight. I think you are onto something. I hope you are right and that the abuses that have come to the Church since the Council will subside very soon. Those bishops and priests who have used VC II as an excuse for corrupting worship as well as corrupting the morality of our youth are shameful. I wish the Church had corrected them. Why is it taking so long?

"The first Sunday I was there the thought that went through my mind was annunciation was the Church envisioned by the Vatican II reforms by the council fathers. The active chanting by the laity is something that just blew me away."

:::sigh:::

Don't get me started. However, we must look to history in order to understand. The Church moves slowly. If you will look at the Arian Heresy you will notice that after the council there were more Arians than ever.

Just continue to pray and God will take care of the Church. He has done so for 2000 years, he will continue until he comes in Glory.

Hey, we don't sing that much new stuff! You'll be able to sing along with most of it. Speaking as a musician, I've never been in a parish with a choir like this. It is a great blessing.

Whenever I think of participation as an issue for a good liturgy, I try to remember what participation really is: taking part. But taking part in what? In the divine nature!

Certainly, I hope, listening to a marvelous setting of the Our Father can help one do that?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!

I think John Gibson makes a good point. Too much choir can have a dampening effect on the participation from the pews. Especially if the music keeps changing.

A congregation that can sing is a real blessing, and attractive to observers and visitors. I recently visited a parish that had virtually no congregational singing (no choir either), what a dissapointing experience, for the time being I have no plans to return there.

At the end of Divine Liturgy they sang God Bless America and the whole place was filled with sound, you could really tell there was a voice there even though half the pews were unoccupied at that liturgy. Sadly, they couldn't sing their prayers with as much spirit.

A congregation with a voice is a real treasure, and should be protected. I think a choir could sing twice a month without jeopardizing that, but I know that when I visit a parish and cannot sing along (due to unfamiliar songs, etc.) I get pretty frustrated.

Michael, that sinner

Nice musical notation there, Coalesco!
C of S

Dear Michael, what a sad comment on the state of the Church...
I have found that a good choir can aid participation, if they keep the chants simple. MY pet liturgical peeve is cantors that approach their material in an operatic style, with a wavering voice. It's impossible to join in . The National Shrine in DC is infamous for this, but I have found it in Byzantine parishes, too. My pastor tells of a cantor in a former parish who instructed him not to encourage the congregation to sing as it tripped him up! Father proceeded in fraternal charity to give him a good job description....

Again, I am not trying to ignite a firestorm here, but giving an observation. Yes, too much choir will put a kabosh on the pews. I believe that the root of the problem is how the choir and the director see themselves. If they see themselves as aids to worship then they will be aids, if they see the congregation as something to blow away with a performance then they must be corrected firmly.

If there is going to be a choir then a big must should be to have the music in the pews with the people so they can at least follow along with the chant that is being used. If the setting has changed it is imperitive that the changes also get filtered down to the laity so they have a chance to fully and actively participate. Otherwise you will end up with a lot of befuddled people (like myself) who have no idea what is going on and feeling pretty dang lost during the middle of it.

Mind you also what I have said goes for western rite parishes also, but I am not going to waste my breath on that topic because I have been bellowing about this since I converted back in 1995.

John

:::sigh::: Athanasius,

You are right the chior is WONDERFUL! Again my only problem was (as a newbe) that I couldn't get in line with the chants that were being sung.

I have other thoughts but it is late and I will post them later.

John