www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Card. Koch on the Dialog Between the Catholic & Orthodox Churches

One big misstep by Koch and many steps backwards by ecumenically minded Catholic and Orthodox Christians.
Thank you for nothing Cardinal Koch!

I think it was an honest assesment of an acknowledged problem in Orthodoxy. See for instance this recent post from Byzantine, Texas [byztex.blogspot.com]. The Orthodox Churches in the United States and elsewhere are working to resolve problems of overlapping jurisdictions because it's acknowledged by the Orthodox that this is a signifigant ecclesiological problem.

(Furthermore, charity requires us to give as favorable a reading as possible to the Cardinal's words, especially when they are very brief excerpted quotations from what was clearly a much longer set of remarks.)

I hope you do get a chance to translate this and post it here soon or in a separate thread. I'm very intrigued by this

Loyalty is apparently rewarded in strange ways by the Vatican.

If the "capo di tutti capo" of the Curia's ecumenical outreach office comes to Kiev and chooses the words he chose in front of the specific audience he addressed, one has to assume they DO NOT REPRESENT just his personal opinion.

Secondly, the ignorant, hurtful and disgusting comments reported from the Nuncio to Ukraine about our Eastern hymnology could have been written by a lackey of Archbishop Ireland or Pope Pius X. If the Italian ambassador said similar nonsense about Ukrainian poetry before an academic symposium in Kiev, he would be run out of town ASAP.

Coupled with Cardinal Sandri' s comments about celibacy how do you expect us Orthodox to react? How much more disrespect can Rome dish out to her loyal Greek Catholic faithful before provoking a reaction? Is the fear of the eastern bear so overwhelming that one would sacrifice their patrimony for promises of "protection"? Ben Franklin's adage comes to mind:"Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

Sometimes I think that the talk about the UGCC church and the UOCKP may be more than just talk. The Phanar can rightly point to nearly a century of allowing the Rusyns their own path into Orthodoxy without the heavy weight of Moscow to scare the faithful away. Likewise their respectful treatment of the UOCUSA. Strange times indeed.

Finally, the issues confronting jurisdictions and ethnicity in America are not what the Cardinal was referring to. But if so, perhaps he is laying a foundation for the "Patriarchal" unification of ALL Eastern Catholic churches into one Eastern rite, accountable and subordinate to Rome free from ethnic or national boundaries. That does not evidence an understanding of or respect for Eastern ecclesiology or anything remotely resembling respect for the terms of the various unions including Brest and Ungvar.

I don't mean to provoke or offend, but these developments seem not to be a coincidence both preceding and following Pope Benedict's resignation.

I'm Eastern Catholic, and just want to say that your comments do not offend me. In fact, I agree with much of what you wrote.

One can hardly give the full explanation of even his personal opinion from the small quotes contained in this article.

You have misunderstood or construed the nuncio's comments in the worst possible way, but let us set them aside, there is enough other material to talk about here.


Cardinal Sandri's comments are an excellent example of the problem of not reading with intepretive charity and fuller context. Based on a tiny quote people piled up mountains of outrage. In fact, a better construal supported by people who actually heard the remarks [orthocath.wordpress.com] can be made. Surely those who are being formed for celibacy (and the Orthodox Churches also have celibate clergy) should be formed so as to embrace it!


This is very strage. People do not become or remain Eastern Catholics for "protection."


Because you say so? Again we have this: "the Orthodox Church should 'boldly examine its main ecclesiological problem, namely, autocephaly of national churches and their inclination toward nationalism.'"

I have offered one example of the problem of nationalism and ecclesiology. This problem is acknowledged by leaders in the Orthodox Church. You have no reason to assume that this problem, the syndrome of which the US problem is a symptom, is not what he was referring to.


Here, you imagine a terrible scenario an, attribute it to the Cardinal and get outraged about it! This makes no sense.

It is also equally acknowledged by the Orthodox that neither Pastor Aeternus nor Canon 28 of Chalcedon provide the solution.

Further, the Orthodox realize that this is not a problem in Ukraine. There is only one Orthodox Church there, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Metropolitan Volodymyr, and no overlapping jurisdictions (except some claims by Romania on Romanians in Ukraine, which remain murky even in Romania's claims).

As for the so called "Diaspora," it's a canonical problem, not an ecclesiastical one.

LOL. It was from RISA. How do you know that those aren't the most favorable of the Cardinal's remarks?

LOL. You have heard of the "council" of Florence, no?

Don't we do this every few years. Cardinal WhizBang visits Ukraine and Moscow to improve relations with the Orthodox/Eastern Catholics/Oompa Loompas, etc. Nothing much ever seems to come from it and things remain pretty much the same.

I don't. But you don't know otherwise. So you can't condemn him based on speculation.

I was speaking to the present day situation, not the situation in the 15th century.

Well first off, it's silly to say "This is not a problem except where it is..." But second, while the UOC-MP i s recognized as canonical and the UOC-KP is not, the existence of the UOC-KP points to the problem of the questions of ecclesiology and nationality, quite apart from the question of union with Rome. This people in the UOC-KP are still in some sense "Orthodox".

[url=http://byztex.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-americanization-of-orthodoxy.html]As for the so called "Diaspora," it's a canonical problem, not an ecclesiastical one. [/quote]

Well, surely it's an ecclesiastical problem. All canonical problems are ecclesiastical problems. Furthermore, it is, as I said, an ecclesiological problem. Differing views of the role/structure/etc. of the Church lead to different opinions on how the problem should be solved (or even if there is a problem.)

Dear JBenedict,

Cardinal Koch is hardly an authority on the ecclesial situation in Ukraine.

To be charitable does not mean one has to be uncritical. And to be critical, doesn't mean one is uncharitable.

He really should have stayed home as the problems of the situation in Ukraine (without reference to other Orthodox countries) will not be resolved by the Vatican.

Alex