www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Intercommunion taken to an extreme?

I didn't go to OL, but I'll listen to the podcasts one of these days. Did someone remind the good Archimandrite that nobody forced them to become Catholic? (Cardinal Kasper even made a point of saying that we aren't "fishing in the Anglican pond".)

And the ex-Anglican clergy are received as laymen and, most of the time, ordained as priests. Apostolicae Curae.

If that were true then we should be way more aggressive in trying to poach Orthodox Christian. Basically an all-out war.

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All I can say is, go do something anatomically improbable. I find your attitude snarky and insulting not merely to me, but to the many priests, hierarchs and faithful of the various Greek Catholic Churches whose beliefs are congruent with mine, and in turn are fully congruent with those of the Holy See. I won't even bother to mention those Orthodox hierarchs, theologians, monastics and faithful who have fully supported the Greek Catholics in their desire both to reclaim the fullness of their patrimony and to recover their communion with Orthodoxy. Many number among my friends, and several have been spiritual fathers to me.

By the way, Father Robert also coined a cliche for approaches like those followed by Sergei. He called it "theology by cliche". He also mentioned something about the Orthodox being completely unfamiliar with the concept of samokritika, but that's another story.

Dear Stuart,

And that is the issue - the Ordinariate is not about accepting the Anglican tradition as it is, but as the RC Church would like it to be based on its own standards. The Ordinariate "submitted" to Rome rather than established a relationship of communion based on ecclesial equality.

The Ordinariate is therefore very much like the Uniate model which Balamand condemned.

Can the members of the Ordinariate liturgically celebrate their own Anglican saints, such as King Charles the Martyr, and others? They continue to do so privately and continue to press this matter at Rome.

This shows that while Rome does talk a good ecumenical talk, it is often caught unawares when someone not in union with it actually speaks up and says, "OK, we would like to join you."

The Ordinariate makes provision for the Anglican ritual, which is really a form of the old rites of Sarum, Hereford and York combined in the Cranmerian way.

But Anglicans are called, by Rome, "Roman Catholics of the Anglican Usage." The term "English Catholics" was used by all the British Martyrs of the Reformation era and never "Roman Catholic" since the latter term indicated an ultramontanist affiliation which was both misunderstood and condemned by English and Scottish popular imagination at the time.

Alex

I like what you say, Sergey. Even though you don't trust anything I write . . . sniff . . .

Alex

I wanted to compliment you on your insight here, JBenedict.

Lest you feel unappreciated in the midst of this exchange between Stuart and Sergey!

Alex

Well that's just silly. I'll admit that I take issue with some of Sergei's view, but he's far from cliche. If anything, I'd say he tends away from the "group think" that's so terribly common.

None of this is news, my good friend,Fr. Larry Barriger's history of the transformation of the KOVO into ACROD - "Good Victory" - makes this clear. Fr.David's dad and Father himself knew my dad for many years and they will affirm the truth that to my father's generation they neither "converted" nor "returned" , but rather "turned" to Orthodoxy as the only path to preserve their beloved patrimony. But I disagree with Fogey as to his representation of modern day Byzantine Catholics. His observations may have been true with regard to my parents' generation, but for those of my generation and younger,(in both ACROD and the BBC) they have come to understand that both sides were wrong in trying to preserve a false image of that beloved patrimony. The Latinizations, we both learned, ever so painfully and slowly I would add, were never legitimate. They were like a horse's head grafted unto a giraffe. They didn't fit the foundation. The foundation it turns out was made of the Hellenic influenced , pre Nikonian, pre 1453 "oddities" which somehow survived isolation, foreign domination and the Unia.

Check your facts. There are eight Seminarians in Johnstown, all but ONE are of Rusyn or part Rusyn heritage, grew up in the ACROD and became friends through years attending and working at Camp Nazareth, participating in ACRY activities, OCF and other activities.

If St. Michael's of Binghamton, NY' s metrical records are typical, and I suspect they are, they support Stuart's argument. In 1930 there were over 4000 souls registered. By 1960 2/3's were no longer affiliated. About 30 % remained Greek Catholic at the new church, Holy Spirit BCC, the balance were RCC, other, nothing or moved.

YOU, AND MOST RCC MISS THE POINT OF THE ARGUMENT. It isn't that celibacy is big or small t. It has everything to do with Rome's attitude. Cum data and Ea Semper may have met the letter of the law but they missed the spirit of the Unions of Brest and Ungvar by a mile. Rome can't be trusted by all Easterners until she realizes this and any future proposed union will go the path of Florence until then. Gotta go,more later.

It is pointless to engage in a debate with you. It seems that your view of the dialogue with the Orthodox is apparently akin to that of General Grant in his exchanges with General Lee. There is but one option - accept the supremacy of the Papacy as defined through Vatican I and you'll allow us to keep our cute costumes and funny hats. Sounds like Florence.

If that is actually that the position of your Church and its last six Popes, I can assure you that the Orthodox would have left the process forty-five years ago.

It's time for Isa and his maps.

Dear DMD,

Am I missing something here? The Young Fogey is an Orthodox Christian . . .

Have I completely misinterpreted your post?

Alex