www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Article on Pope Francis from Christianity Today

That's not what I said. I said Benedict's obedience to all that was a sign of humility, and not the pride the press interprets it to be. And likewise, while the press nearly wet themselves when Francis got on the bus with the cardinals, and every time since that he's done anything without the pomp Benedict usually did, none of this is necessarily a sign of humility, and when what you're doing is causing everyone to swoon at your humility and modesty, it's a good sign that you're doing it wrong.

Big deal. The Romans were in the habit of pouring wine as a sacrifice to their pagan gods. Will you now argue that Jesus made a hash of his symbolism?

And a Byzantine mitre is suspiciously similar to a Byzantine crown, while we're discussing bishops in kingly gear they ought to cast aside. I disagree, but at least it's consistent.

Hey, no problem. But I'm not all-wise, just relatively perceptive. Or did you mean that Fr's. Van Halen T-shirt is really just a ham-fisted "that Christ may increase and I may decrease" strategy?

More like arrogant presumption.

Given the seder in the Penteteuch, and Barukh of Hebrew meals, no.

As for your supreme pontiff trying to fill Caesar's shoes, if the shoe fits...

Sorry, but is this you switching sides and arguing my side of it?

Not really so much lately, but earlier, sure. What's that got to do with it? Are you not accepting that the meaning of a symbol may change, or at least develop? What makes this so different from all those Russian bishops wearing crowns of Eastern Emperors for mitres?

Yeah, I'm good with that: I make arrogant presumptions about priests in Van Halen T-Shirts. I'm a bad person.

For the record, I have never seen a priest in a Van Halen t-shirt. Since I don't think much of Van Halen, I confess that I too would probably harbor some arrogant presumption.

I think I was more concerned with the implicit comparison of Pope Francis's decision to said priests (or to dads who don't really want to be dads.) I think a lot more can be said for the account you offered of Benedict's decision to retrieve some symbols and trappings as an act of humility than for your negative appraisal of Pope Francis's decision not to continue the same.
Fair point, no?

You claimed to "correct" someone who claimed the red shoes were part of the pomp

None of my remarks towards you had anything to do with any judgment you have passed towards priests in Van-Halen T-shirts; rather, they concerned your passing judgment on Pope Francis.

Oh, I see. Well then, I do not claim to have been charitable in all my remarks, and certainly a better man would have been. But I do stand by my assertion that the Holy Father's humility is ostentatious. I ought to be clear that I do not know or pretend to know his motives for it all, only to comment on the effect.

It is interesting to note that the original article has plenty of judgment of Benedict XVI, by presenting him as the pompous foil to Francis' much-celebrated modesty, but I'm the only one taking exception to that.

("much-celebrated modesty". I believe that's my whole point of view right there).

I think a lot can be explained as the difference between a professor and a pastor.

The Byzantine mitre (crown) was not worn by bishops until AFTER the Fall of Constantinople in 1453. Its adoption reflects the role of bishops as civil authorities over the Rhum Milet under the Ottoman Sultans. Prior to that time, bishops wore monastic headgear--either a klobuk or a cowl.

I think you overstate the point, but I get it. Fair enough.