www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Eastern Catholics are Roman?

The label RC is a protestant one. They insist on using it and we have also taken it on board. The Byzantine Orthodox churches of the east are still referred to as Roman by the Syriac and Coptic churches. I met a Syrian of the Antiochian Orthodox Church a few years ago who said his people still describe them selves as "Rum Ortox" in Arabic. The late Fr Peter Knowles OP often said that the Liturgy (Byz) was a product of the Roman Empire and it's culture.

Crazy ol' Pius XII.

Dear Peter,

You are bang on sir!

Alex

Dear Booth,

A very thought-provoking, intelligent post! I'm going to have to reflect on it over some time before its wisdom sinks into me more fully!

Thank you for sharing!

Alex

Yes sir, you are more than correct!

Fr. Dr. Bohdan Lypsky, the first pastor of St Nicholas UGCC parish in Toronto (which appeared in the movie, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding, BTW), would often use the term "New Roman" or "Romei" to describe what we today call "Byzantine."

The term "Rhoum" or "Romei" - refer to what is probably the highest achievement of the Greco-Roman world. The Romaioi had both Greek and Latin as their official languages and cultures, interspersed with others.

I'm taking a university course on this very subject which I find fascinating. Lots of study involved and it brings back memories of when I went to university and was considered, at that time, to be intelligent!

Alex

Dear Peter the Rock,

Ambrosian Rite Catholics do call themselves "Roman Catholics of the Ambrosian Rite" and I've seen this on at least one of their Churches.

Alex

Very well said, Pavel.

Alex

Sure, it's impossible to separate Greco-Roman and Latin Roman.

Consider as well -
- The Latins took their alphabet from the Greeks.
- "Catholic" itself is a Greek word.
- The founder of the Roman See wrote in Greek, as did his successors for quite some time.
- One of Rome's two origin stories involves it being founded by a Greek.

On the other side,
- The mother city of the Greek Church was founded by, and named for, a Latin.
- Everything said above about the Greek's supple adoption of originally Latin imperial throne.
- Latin loanwords in Greek theological and other religious terminology ("templon" comes to mind).

There must be countless more examples.

Returning to the cross title, I don't think it's an accident that of those three culture groups, the Sacred Scriptures were written in Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic, and yet authority was given to the bishop a city of the third, Latin. That should be grounds not only for mutual humility, but is an excellent argument (I think) that the church must be both unified and yet cosmopolitan. And romanitas was both.

It makes me think of the mystery of marriage. Pardon me in advance if this is too old-fashioned for some. The husband is the head, the wife is the heart, or at least usually. Adam and Eve - man is the glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. I'm still thinking through this idea, but it seems that although leadership was given to a Latin city's bishop, the Greeks (writ-large) are the glory and beauty of the Church and of Roman-ness. Authority is a blessing and a burden, and five-will-get-you-ten that if Providence placed the papacy within the Greek Church, that rite would be much more ritually plain, theologically forensic, and generally "left-brained," so to speak.

I think there is more to be mined in this concept by people smarter and more spiritual than myself. Where does the semitic third fall in this metaphor? I haven't gotten that far yet.

Interesting. [Linked Image]

I guess not everyone agrees with those who say that Roman Catholic = Roman-Rite Catholic.[Linked Image]

Ambrosian Rite Catholics do call themselves "Roman Catholics of the Ambrosian Rite" and I've seen this on at least one of their Churches.

Which is a shame. It fully symbolizes the collapse of the conception of local Churches and regional primacy within the Western Church. Imagine how much more vibrant and dynamic Western Christianity would be if there were still a Gallic Church, an African Church, and a Milanese Church. Everybody knows Ambrose. Everybody knows Augustine. A lot of people even know Isadore of Saville, Vincent of Lerins and John Cassian. How many fourth and fifth century Popes can most people name?

Or, is keeping up with the collapse.

I don't know if I agree that this particular usage 'fully symbolizes' that collapse, but I certainly agree that both 'the conception of local Churches' and the 'regional primacy' require large scale renovation in the Western Church. I think the good news is that this idea has some widespread support within the Latin Church.

I also agree that strengthening the various non-Roman western rites might help restore the local church and the regional primacy/synodality. As I understand it, however, the Ambrosian rite, which is the most widely used of these rites, isn't even used throughout the diocese of Milan itself. I think the others are much more narrowly used.

Dear Royal Stuart,

And the Celtic Church - although there are those who deny it existed as a particular Church. I believe it most certainly did and enshrined a very rich Celtic spirituality.

Alex

Some converts should be called "Roamin' Catholics!"

"Regional primacy." Now there's a focus of historic ecclesial study that the West (and the East) can surely benefit from!