www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Questions about the Treaty of Brest

^Not to deny that Providence did use the Treaty of Brest etc. to His Own purpose in the cause of Orthodoxy (and a lot of people in the "Union" used it to that end).

Amazingly, I think this is the first time I've heard an Orthodox make the claim (as distinct from the multitude who have just hinted at it) that, if not for the Union of Brest et al, then Latin Catholics would have forced the Orthodox in e.g. Poland to become Latin Catholics.

Maybe we are finally making process in our dialogue. [Linked Image]

Actually not, it depends on which circles one travels within. Many Orthodox who come from regions where they live among Eastern Catholics or who are from an EC background who study history will acknowledge that reality. You will also learn that in east Europe at least, the consciousness of being Catholic in communion with Rome was a gradual process over time.Modern means of communication, education and geopolitical change increased the associational ties between Rome and the laity in the 20th century while the same forces, coupled with miscalculations and blunders by both the Romans and the Russians, further added to the process of alienating the two communities.

My grandparents' generation of the laity, born in the last third of the 19th century had a more limited sense of that connection connection with Rome than do their contemporary descendents, as they were more connected with The Church being what it was on a local, village level. Bishops, popes and patriarchs were remote, almost abstract figures. In the Slavonic texts, they prayed "Vsich vas pravoslavnyj Christiane" before, during and after the Unia. The names being prayed for changed, but to them, the prayers and the visual symbolism seemed "the same."

So, naively I suspect, informed Eastern Catholics and Orthodox whose roots are in both historical worlds have much to offer the process of dialogue - if only the larger groups (Rome and other Orthodox) would listen to what we have to say.

Well, I did say "maybe". Quite frankly, the Orthodox attitude toward Eastern Catholicism still leaves much to be desired (which is putting it mildly; some might say that "pretentious" is not too strong a descriptor to use) but I think your making-the-claim-directly is preferable to the hinting I've listened to.

Pretentiousness and triumphalism within certain Orthodox circles is one of the great turn offs to many inquiring about Orthodoxy as well as to many faithful Orthodox. My dad used to say that it seemed some fellow Orthodox omitted the Gospel readings of the three Sundays entering Lent. (To be fair, Roman Catholicism has its fair share of the same,just watch a few hours of EWTN if you're not a RCC ).

But I will argue that those Orthodox involved in dialogue,interfaith community action or non biased academia are far more generous in spirit and action than those in the world of internet fora or websites.

I find contemporary laity to be kinder as well.The joy was palpable this Christmas when the local annual Orthodox Christmas choral concert invited the local Byzantine Catholic church choir to join in at the local Ukrainian Orthodox church. The overriding sentiment was its about time we all moved beyond 1938 and acted like Christians.

Likewise pilgrimages from regional BCC and Ukrainian Catholic parishes to the weekly services at the weeping Theotokas at St George Orthodox Church near Scranton. We have few, if any Antiochians or Melkites in our area or NE Pennsylvania so I can't speak to that dynamic.

Dear IAmisry,

You mentioned the Hierarch Andrey Sheptytsky of whom I do know something about . . .

His family spoke both Polish and Ukrainian as it was a mixed ethnic family. In fact, the Sheptytsky ancestry was originally Ukrainian/Ruthenian and, along with all other Ruthenian noble families of the time, intermarried with Polish nobility.

His father was RC so, yes, he was baptized RC. He returned to his family's Ukrainian/Ruthenian roots as a Greek Catholic and became the greatest leader of the UGCC. He used his vast wealth for the Church, giving lands to many married priests for their upkeep, my grandfather included.

He assisted countless seminarians, poor people in general and saved countless Jews.

My great grandfather was employed as the keeper of his summer residence in the Carpathians, my grandfather attended seminary free of charge, paid for by the Metropolitan, and my father attended seminary also, but left, with the Metropolitan's blessing and assistance, during the war.

I venerate him highly as do many Ukrainian Catholics - and Orthodox. He was recently feted by the Canadian government in Ottawa in the presence of a delegation from Ukraine.

Alex

Dear Peter the Rock,

In fact, Latinization became the norm not only in the EC church stemming from the Union of Brest, but also in the Orthodox Church at the time.

This wasn't due to Polish pressure so much as the simple fact of Europe's pull. Orthodox students were sent to the West to study (to get to know the Catholic "enemy"). They came back home as trained scholastics who imported both Latin style theology and devotions into Orthodoxy.

St Dmitri (Tuptalenko) of Rostov wrote his famous "Lives of the Saints" based on western models. He not only prayed the rosary but used many other Western forms of prayer, including the practice of praying a Hail Mary at the beginning of each hour, 24 hours a day . . . St Peter Mohyla of Kyiv did the same and so on.

This "Baroque injection" into Ruthenian Orthodoxy at the time served to not only allow Orthodox theologians to intelligently articular their faith and tradition to the rest of Europe, but it also served to keep Muscovy at bay down to the present time.

The Muscovite Orthodox (which during the time of Peter I came to be called "Russian Orthodox") even adopted a number of Latin traditions on its own (such as the Passia services and the Rosary together with a number of Latin icons (St Seraphim's icon for instance) and even some statues (i.e. Our Lady of Loretto).

The aftermath of the Treaty of Brest is a much more interesting sociological study than theological one.

Alex

^ Indeed, we are really prisoners of history in many, many ways.

I want to clarify my earlier posts regarding my grandparents generation. Of course, they knew that the pope was commemorated in the Ruthenian Churches and they knew that they were not Russian Orthodox as Alex mentions.But this was in a practical, not a theological manner.

Keep in mind that from the time of Tsar Alexander II efforts to destablilze the Hungarian/Gallician frontier were underway. Panslavism influenced many Greek Catholics, including the works of beloved Rusyn writers like Duchnovych and Beskid, and through that movement the Russians gained supporters among the intelligentsia of the day.

With Ireland's blunders in Minneapolis, an entire new opportunity was presented to the Muscovites. The irony of course is that the Russians were as influenced in their own way by western Europe as were the Ruthenians and Lemkos, they just pretended it wasn't so.

I believe in my heart that somewhere, interceeding for us and seeking the protection of our Most Blessed Lady, are the great men and women of those borderlands, both known and unknown to us all,some are Greek Catholic like Blessed Pavel and Teodor, Metropolitan Sheptynsky and Alex's grandfather and others are Orthodox like St. Alexis, St. Maxim, Bishop Orestes, my own father. They join together with all of our beloved 'babas' and 'didos' who struggled with all of their hearts and souls to preserve their Faith against all odds. We owe them nothing less than to struggle against the forces of today which seek the destruction of our ways and if we at least are no longer fighting each other, we can fight our common enemy with vigor and faith.

I don't doubt the faith or piety of those who disagree with my point of view, but I believe that they are misguided in some ways.

Just to be fair, as the Russians were influenced by their exposure to western thought in Europe, the Greeks were influenced by the Turkish yoke and the Sultans. Hence, I find the argument that 'we/you' are 'more/less' pure in tradition than 'you/we' are to be among the most idiotic arguments in the world of Orthodoxy.

It is a distraction from God's work.

Dear DMD,

It's too bad that I can't hug you right now!!

Cheers!

Alex

And this all has what to do with the point that was made, except to offer proof for it?

Muscovites?

I don't know of anyone from Moscow involved.

Archbishop (later Metropolitan and then Patriarch) St. Tikhon was from Tver.

Bishop Nicholas, who received Fr. St. Alexis, came from Kazan.

His successor, Bp. Vladimir, was from Cherson.

Surely proof-of-your-point isn't all that you saw there?

I'm thinking Isa needs to be taken behind the woodshed by Fr. Robert Taft and David Bentley Hart, and given a good ecumenical thrashing until his attitude improves.

I'm sure you would like to watch.

Btw, funny you should post. I just came across you post in the thread on Bp. Borys Gudziak in Paris and responded.

And facts are facts. My attitude on that is quite fine.