www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Altar Girls????

I have a quick question for Chad.

You said....
Now, what do you mean by your Hegumen? are you a monk? then if so wouldn't your priest also either be your Hegumen or at least under your Hegumen?

David

Axios:

A couple of points:

First of all, I hold no one in low esteem. If the tone of my post seemed to indicate that to you, please forgive me because my intention was to state emphatically and nothing more.

Secondly, I have no power to see the secret intentions of anyone. That having been said, this agenda is not a secret. It has been discussed in many periodicals to which I subscribe or borrow—both liberal and conservative—for many years. I have a sister-in-law who is a nun in a liberal order and she and her sisters have been advocating this for the past 29 years that I've known her.

Do you remember the nun who knelt before the Holy Father and advocated the ordination of women during one of his first trips to the United States? This issue has been around since the midst of the Vatican Council where it was discussed and turned down: my original copy of The Documents of Vatican II mentions it in a footnote.

Finally, I have no agenda of my own. I have taken my Baptismal obligation to accept the Faith as it is presented to me, to live it out faithfully, to enrich it by my example always taking great care that no innovation of my own should become attached, and passing it along to my children and those who are entrusted to me for instruction. I work among both liberal and conservative clergy every day. Everyone knows where I stand on this issue. I believe, with the Holy Father, that the Church cannot ordain women, now or ever.

I also believe that it is our obligation to stay abreast of all the issues that come to the Church and to be informed as to what the Church says. I guess that is why I am a Catholic. At some point, there is a final voice that can and does give us the answer to each issue. I may not always like the answer, but I believe that the Catholic's (or Orthodox Christian's) constant question here is “what does the Church say about this” since “he who hears you, hears Me.”

Again, if I have offended, please accept my humble apology.

BOB

Excerpts from the Pastoral Guide of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the USA (the particular law also known as the Archeparchial Statutes):

Article 278, section 1. Only males may be altar servers in the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

Section 2. Under no circumstances, whatsoever, are members of the female gender permitted to act as subdeacons or altar servers.

Looks pretty clear cut according to the particular law at least for the UGCC in the USA.

it is in the code of canons.

Dear Bob,

I am pleased to hear you do not hold those who advocate the ordination of women is low esteem.

I would take no offense in your statement if you chose to amend it In reality,some of those who have pushed for this innovation have said theyhope that eventually the sight of women in the sanctuary will cause people not to be disturbed when some dissident bishop ordains the first woman in the Catholic Church.

Then, if you follow it with some citations, it would be very nice.

Axios

Axios:

While I've read of this situation that I have outlined, the best summary to date is the one contained in the best seller, Goodbye, Good Men. It summarizes the history that I have both witnessed, lived through, and discussed with clergy over the past 35+ years. In my professional career, I have had the privilege to have confidential relationships with Catholic clergy because of the nature of the work we do together. When things change, I have had the opportunity to ask both those who style themselves "liberal" and those who style themselves "conservative" what the reasons behind changes in practice are, both official and unofficial. As such, I have had the chance to hear things from those on the inside. Most of what I have learned has come about because I will not quote these men directly or name them if challenged.

If this seems a bit bizarre to you, it just happens to be the way that the world works. People are very often willing to share inside information in almost any field, if they have grown to know and trust someone. That takes time and a certain amount of sharing of self to the other. As such, I have been privileged to be the confident to many clergy members over the course of my career. It's often not easy to find someone one can trust and I have made myself available to many because every human being needs someone they can reach out to, vent to, and feel comfortable with. That seems to me to be the way we are created.

Altar girls are supposed to be an "option," but woe to the priest who decides he does not want to exercise the option.

As for my comment about women's ordination, that topic has been closed for discussion by Pope John Paul in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, May 22, 1994, available on the Vatican website in English and other languages. We are to hold this as an article of faith without doubting it after that date.

In spite of this, I still have clergy telling me privately that they are promoting this practice for this very reason.

As for documentation citation, anyone who wants to dissent isn't about to lend himself to written forms that can come back to haunt one. as one ofmy mentors in the secular world once said: "always speak the thing you want to say; never commit it to any written or recorded form. Thatway you can always call someone a liar who quotes your own words back to you." Cynical? Sure. Again, unfortunately some of the way the world, including the Church, really works.

BOB

Dear Theophan/Bob

Regarding your previous post, please reconsider:

"The wisdom of the world is foolishness with God"

"Do not bear false witness"

The scripture teaches us not to speak at all, unless we really mean it.

In Christ.

Amen.

Axios

Almost ten years ago in our church my older sister and her friend wanted to know why they couldn't serve. Our priest at the time, Fr. Tom Loya, made sure they knew why girls could not be altar servers. Their desire to serve, however, was not wasted because we eventually started a position called a "Martha Mary server." The title was to remind us of balancing the different aspects of serving.

The Martha Mary servers at our church stay in front of the icon screen, always, and only step off of the floor to hold the gospel book for the priest. They also hold the communion cloth, the candle during the epistle, and help when other needs come up, like holding collection baskets.

The girls who "serve" have blue, white, or red gowns that we sewed for them to go over their clothes, made out of vestment material.

Both Metropolitan Basil and our new Bishop John have both celebrated Divine Liturgy with the Martha Mary servers helping. I know it is a great help to the priest, and the girls love serving!

I don't think I would be quick to spread the idea to other parishes without asking the bishop first, but for now it seems to work great. Instead of telling girls they can't serve at all (atleast officially in church), I think it's best to give them licit ways to express their desire to serve.

If anything, I know that the girls in my church understand and respect why they serve in a different way than the altar boys. Hopefully this will stick with them when they grow up.

and who says we can't have any modernizations?

Axios

Dear Axios,

ROCOR, Old Calendarists, my parish priest etc.

Alex

Elizabeth,
This is a great idea, and this is how, I believe, women serve the liturgy in cloistered monasteries where the only man allowed is the priest to celebrate the Divine Liturgy.

That being said, I think this should only be done in parishes where no man/boy wishes to serve or can serve, like at a daily or holy day liturgy where the only people present are women.

Yes these girls can be a help, but much of what an altar server does, that is of the greatest help, happens behind the Icon screen. Like getting the censer, making sure the incense is filled as needed. Getting the hot water, just to name a few things. There are many more.

As for holding the Gospel book, in my parish (Melkite) the deacon holds it for himself or one could use a stand for it.

David

Dear David,

Why?

Alex

Alex,
You confused me with your why, which is why I emailed you for clairfication.

Now that you have clairfied your why in email I will post my reponse here.

Because, when you have servers behind the icon screen is there any need for a server that can not enter that space?

Conversely, when there are no servers behind the icon screen, it is nice to still have candles in processions and what ever help, although it is limited, they can provide.

David

Dear David,

Thanks for the reply and sorry if I was seen as "skirting" around the issue . . .

Alex