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Alex,

I did not want to get into it. But, I don't believe they worship the same God as I do. What if I said they reject the same God? That seems to work. Both Jews and Moslems deny Christ, the Triune God, creed, and a host of other things.

I understand, I softened my response simply to avoid dragging out a premisis that we decided to disagree on, that of the idea that we worship the same God. I don't believe we do, and you do.

So, I then softened my response because I wanted to see what the position of the posters was on the idea of them being heretics. I am not Catholic, but I am curious as to the position of the Catholic church on these things.

I sometimes don't make myself clear. And it does cause confusion. I apologize. Chad

chadrook, as I said above, I think you are right to underline the difference between Christian ecumenism and our talking to or relating to people who do not share the same basic faith in Jesus Christ.

To me, however, it is very important to say that we worship the same God, because I think it was a fundamental insistence of ancient Christianity. Moreover, the Church made this insistence over and against the claims of heretics who taught that the God Christians worship was not the same God. But, this was also a fundamental insistence over and against the Jews as well--that Christians worshiped rightly the God of the Jews, and had been made heirs to the Jewish covenant. (That is to say that the Christians did claim to worship the God of the Jews, and that they insisted that the God of the Jews was the selfsame Trinity they confessed.)

Personally, I think that the Jews have a unique status in any Christian accounting of 'other religions.' We share their Scriptures and we confess the truth of those Scriptures and the covenant they promised. (And, though Muslims similarly claim to worship rightly the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, over and against the Jews and us, they do not accept our the revelation of our Scriptures but proclaim another.) Nevertheless, I think that we can perhaps talk about Islam in a way that some Jews talk about Christianity. Though we Christians (on the accounting of those Jewish thinkers) have misidentified the Messiah and have confused God's identity by calling Jesus divine, they can regard us as something a step up from simple Gentiles because we worship the true God and revere his Scriptures. In a similar way, I suppose I also think that Islam has brought monotheism to many places where idolatry prevailed, that they venerate the patriarchs, prophets, Jesus and His Mother.

I agree with you that we cannot and should not affirm Islam as 'true religion,' nor that we share the 'true religion' with them as some underlying core. I also think you are right to suspect that there probably are some who might do just this in the name of something they might (wrongly) call 'ecumenism.' However, I don't think that rules out the possibility of any and all dialogue or friendliness.

You seemed to denigrate their belief with your inclusion of the scriptural quote on the belief of devils.

It sounded almost like a comparison. Alex

Chadrook,

Certainly, the Christian God which is the Father, the Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is not the God of other faiths.

My point was simply that this does not make everyone else "heretics."

So if I was not a Christian but believed in God and was never a Christian before, I could not be called a heretic. While I would materially reject Christianity, my rejection is not about a formal acceptance or development of a Christian theological error.

Alex

Certainly, Judaism and Islam do not share our faith in the Trinity, nor confess Him to be Father, Son, and Spirit. That doesn't mean they don't worship Him.

I continue to think it's actually very important to say that our God is the 'God of Israel' and the 'God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.' To the extent that Muslims also find that important, I am willing to say that they too worship the same God, though naturally--as I think all here agree (?)--we do not believe that they know God as we know Him, since they do not accept God's unique, definitive, and complete self-revelation in Jesus Christ.

(I realize that wasn't really the point of your post.)

This has been discussed numerous times.

Spend some time with 1 Cor 13:12: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Christians accept Christ and know him through the Cross and Resurrection but still see through a glass, darkly.

Jews have a relationship with the same God but, because they do not know Him through the Cross and Resurrection, the glass they seem him through is darker and cloudier. Nevertheless, He is the same Lord and the same God.

Muslims also have a relationship with the same God. For them, however, the glass they see Him through is almost totally dark. They can detect His presence, and the guesses about Him are mostly erroneous. Nevertheless, He is the same Lord and the same God.

A parallel with Acts 17:22-23 is not exact, but it can serve by way of example: Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.

As Christians, our ministry towards those who know God but don't know much about Him (or have made erroneous conclusions about Who-He-Is) is to tell them about Jesus (firstly, by example). Note that Paul acknowledges (17:32-34) that they were religious, and teaches them with respect. Some mocked Paul, others were skeptical but did not close the door to his message (and were willing to hear him again). And "some men joined him and believed".

Dear eastwardlean,

Always a pleasure to speak with and learn from an intelligent person such as yourself (and the Administrator, of course, is no slouch either).

I think though that montheists could be said to have similar ideas about Who God is in His One Divine Nature.

But even here there are notable differences. In Muslim thought, God can do whatever He pleases. This contrasts with the Christian perspective that suggests that since God is Love, God will not do what is against His Nature.

Another example is when Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars once gathered to discuss, among other things, the Our Father prayer (and, of course, they published a book with their discussions). What struck me as telling is when the Jewish and Muslim scholars accepted everything in the Our Father prayer EXCEPT where it says "Thy Will be done . . ."

At this, the Jewish and Muslim scholars parted company with the Christians and said that if we are praying that God's Will be done . . . what is the purpose of praying to begin with? Why pray then? And the argument went on from there.

What I'm suggesting is that from the human vantage point, we only understand God through the prisms of our own limited perspectives (which is what the Administrator is talking about above).

Even with varying levels of revelation about God that God Himself reveals to us, we are still at this basic, fundamental disadvantage.

Our Lord Himself, in talking with the Samaritan Woman at Jacob's Well, told her that the Jews worship what they knew, but that the Samaritans (who could symbolize all other religions), worship what they do not know (again, this underscores what the Administrator has said).

So there is a qualitative difference between human understandings of Who God is, which we already agree on. We worship our own "icon" of God which is based on how we see Him which understanding comes from our own experience, but primarily from the environment of our faith and culture.

And there are better "icons" of God and worse ones that reflect themselves not only in worship, but also in behaviour.

The icon of a God Who assumes our flesh and is nailed to a Cross while forgiving His enemies is distinct from a God whom other people may see as being angry, vengeful, exacting and unforgiving.

We can say that we all worship the same God or Divine Nature. But I believe that is far from the whole story.

A Catholic theologian I used to read when I was growing up, Louis Evely, (who got himself into a lot of trouble later on), once said that, "Christians are no better than others, but the God they worship is better."

In another place he once wrote, "For what do we congratulate God on Trinity Sunday? That He does not live as a celibate, that He is Three rather than just One."

Yes, we worship the same God. But how we perceive Him based on how we see Him revealing Himself to us makes all the difference.

The difference being between a Suffering God Who is Love and another type of god who is anything but.

The latter view is not God, and to worship him is to invite anything but love and peace into our lives.

And Christians are just as capable of worshipping the wrong icon of God as anyone else, even as they confess the Trinity in Unity.

Where I will disagree with the Administrator (which might not be a disagreement, I don't know at this moment) is with respect to the statement of the images of God other people have based on their respective religions. Grace can work in people who are not Christian and Christians can reject Grace.

Ultimately, how we live our lives in God is what defines us for what we are before the Lord.

Enough of me for one night.

Alex

Not as idealized as you may think. The fact is that despite appearances, violent Muslims are still a minority. The ones who are peaceful can point to many peaceful passages in the Qur'an, and often have different interpretations of the violent ones.

So, I think Pope Francis has good reason to want to reach out to them: first of all, because they're God's children, and second, because if we maintain good relations with the peaceful majority of Muslims, they'll be less likely to end up joining forces with the violent ones.

Not the "vast" majority--at least not anymore--but even if they're losing ground they're still a significant number.

Not "reasoned away," no. (But don't forget that God's power is greater than all their hatred!)

Of course not! The ones that have already made up their minds aren't going to change them. It's with the ones who aren't so fanatical that there's always a chance.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

I see it as politically correct nonsense.

Islam is a false religion, and so Islamic "faith" has no salvific value. How can it? Seeing that it is founded upon an explicit denial of the dogma of the Trinity.

I do not agree. The false god of Islam is the creator of both good and evil, he causes men to be both good and sinful, and this belief is utterly contrary to the Christian faith.

Moreover, when it comes to the teaching of St. Paul in the Acts of the Apostles he is talking about a type of preparation for the Gospel found in pre-Christians beliefs, but Islam is a post-Christian belief founded upon an explicit rejection of the dogmas of the Trinity and the Incarnation. As scripture says:

"This is the anti-Christ, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life."

It must never be forgotten that Muhammad is an anti-Christ.

Popes have been wrong before and there will no doubt be popes in the future who promote error.

It is not possible to adore God and deny the dogma of the Trinity at the same time.

I agree with my brother above, with one caveat: It is much more accurate to acknowledge the Oneness of God, and worship God that much more closer to Truth than not (atheism, polytheism, etc). We can hope and pray that this sliver of Truth leads to a fuller more complete understanding for them in this lifetime.

What of the Jews?