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Mar 25th, 2025
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Father Deacon Paul,
I think they are painting their own canvas with the likes of the above rants. I am merely interpreting what I see there.
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I understand. Obscene Americans also ranted insanely in the Texas legislature in defense of unlimited abortion.
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Pro-Morsi demonstration at Al-Aqsa Mosque: U.S., France, Britain to be destroyed, Rome to be conqueredJihad Watch July 17, 2013 There were also calls for the restoration of the caliphate. The caliphate is supposed to be the unitary state in which every Muslim is a citizen. In Sunni theology, only the caliph is authorized to wage offensive jihad -- which is one reason (but not the only reason) why in the current absence of a caliph all jihads are justified by endless grievance-mongering. All jihad is currently defensive, so the grievances have to be retailed. This crowd also repeated the genocidal and anti-Semitic "Khaybar" war chant. “Pro-Morsi Demonstration at Al-Aqsa Mosque: U.S., France, Britain to Be Destroyed, Rome to Be Conquered,” from MEMRI, July 12: Following are excerpts from a pro-Morsi demonstration held outside the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, which was posted on the Internet on July 12, 2013: Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May America be destroyed. Crowd: Allah Akbar. Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed. Crowd: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed. Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered. Crowd: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered. Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May America be destroyed. Crowd: Allah Akbar. May America be destroyed. Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed. Crowd: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed. Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May Britain be destroyed. Crowd: Allah Akbar. May Britain be destroyed. Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered. Crowd: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered. More of this raving and ranting at http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/07/p...o-be-destroyed-rome-to-be-conquered.html As for the countries he wants destroyed, the idols of European societies and America seem to be doing that from within... Lord have mercy!
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I see it as nothing other than an act of kindness towards Muslims, not as an heretical act of encouraging the practice of a false religion. I totally agree with Ryan here. Politeness is a form of Christian charity and love. Peoples need to live together in peace. Respecting the (differences) of the other is the only way to do that.
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Epiphanius, quotes Gregory VII. Yet Gregory, if so concerned with the welfare of Michel VII, why did he show such support for the Moslems?
And does the Catholic church really believe, "the God of Christians is the same God of Muslims?" Or was this just a statement of an individual?
I can understand desires of ecumenism, when we all believe that the only way to the Father is through Christ. But for those who deny Christ as God? When did this happen?
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I can understand desires of ecumenism, when we all believe that the only way to the Father is through Christ. But for those who deny Christ as God? When did this happen? So do you mean to say also that we do not worship the God of the Jews? I think it's a basic commitment of historic Christianity to say that we do.
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I can understand desires of ecumenism, when we all believe that the only way to the Father is through Christ. But for those who deny Christ as God? When did this happen? So do you mean to say also that we do not worship the God of the Jews? I think it's a basic commitment of historic Christianity to say that we do. No, we do not. And I don't prescribe to the Abrahamic faith's idea. Do I really need to explain? And I completely disagree with the last statement.
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I can understand desires of ecumenism, when we all believe that the only way to the Father is through Christ. But for those who deny Christ as God? When did this happen? So do you mean to say also that we do not worship the God of the Jews? I think it's a basic commitment of historic Christianity to say that we do. No, we do not. And I don't prescribe to the Abrahamic faith's idea. Do I really need to explain? And I completely disagree with the last statement. Then it appears that we completely disagree. I am not terribly interested in 'the Abrahamic faith's idea.' I believe that orthodox Christianity was at first defined by the insistence that YES, Christians do worship the God of Israel. "Do I really need to explain?" I'm not sure if this was meant to be condescending, or just came across that way. But Yes, if you mean to say that it was not a basic insistence of historic Christianity that it did worship the selfsame God whom the Jews also claimed to worship, then yes, your statement would require a little explanation.
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chadrook,
I want to clarify that I DO agree with you in distinguishing very sharply between Christian ecumenism and whatever sort of relating Christians do with the people of other religions, Judaism and Islam included.
But I don't think that rules out preferring to relate to them in ways that encourage social harmony, like wishing our neighbors Happy Hannukah or Happy Ramadan, or whatever. (Presumably that could apply even to people who aren't monotheists, no?)
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I can understand desires of ecumenism, when we all believe that the only way to the Father is through Christ. But for those who deny Christ as God? When did this happen? So do you mean to say also that we do not worship the God of the Jews? I think it's a basic commitment of historic Christianity to say that we do. No, we do not. And I don't prescribe to the Abrahamic faith's idea. Do I really need to explain? And I completely disagree with the last statement. Then it appears that we completely disagree. I am not terribly interested in 'the Abrahamic faith's idea.' I believe that orthodox Christianity was at first defined by the insistence that YES, Christians do worship the God of Israel. "Do I really need to explain?" I'm not sure if this was meant to be condescending, or just came across that way. But Yes, if you mean to say that it was not a basic insistence of historic Christianity that it did worship the selfsame God whom the Jews also claimed to worship, then yes, your statement would require a little explanation. No not condescending, I have fought this battle before. I will at least soften my response by taking the stance of St John of Damascus, they are at the very best heretics. And that goes for both the Moslems and Jews. It could even include most of the 33 thousand protestants. "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness." (Romans 10:2-3) Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. The person who confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23) "Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son." - 1 John 2:22 "(...) and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world." - 1 John 4:3 "For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." - 2 John 1:7 Muslims expressly deny that Jesus was the Christ; God in the flesh... and so do the 'Jews' so, at best they are heretics.
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Chadrook, none of that goes against the idea that we worship the same God (though they do so incorrectly.) And this is the teaching of the Catholic Church (in Nostra Aetate, quoted above).
"Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble." James 2:19
It's surely not enough, but if even the devils believe in the one God, than the Muslims can too.
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Chadrook, none of that goes against the idea that we worship the same God (though they do so incorrectly.) And this is the teaching of the Catholic Church (in Nostra Aetate, quoted above).
"Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble." James 2:19
It's surely not enough, but if even the devils believe in the one God, than the Muslims can too. That is why I softened my response and said they are heretics at best.
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They can only be heretics if they were Christians to begin with and later either came to an heretical conclusion or joined others in an "heretical camp."
But even St Augustine denied that Christians who were born into communities that were founded by heretics condemned as such by the Church could be called "heretics."
There is something of a a personal conviction in a wrong theological conclusion on the part of Christians that must be present in order for something to be truly "heretical."
In no way are Muslims "heretics" therefore.
Alex
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JBenedict,
I know several Muslims whose faith and life go well beyond that of the belief of the devils.
As St Augustine said, "There are those outside the Church who seem to be in the Church; And there are those in the Church who appear to be outside of it."
That can apply to any Catholic or Orthodox Christian as well.
Alex
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I know several Muslims whose faith and life go well beyond that of the belief of the devils.
Sure, but that's not the point of how I employed the quote.
Chadrook,
It was not clear to me when you said they were heretics at best that you were conceding the point about them worshipping the same God.
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