www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Pope Francis wishing a happy ramadan to Muslims?

Speaking of such individuals, go to EWTN and look for the Journey Home with guest Talat Strokirk, former Muslim.

Rabbinic Judaism is not Biblical Judaism. It is a new faith - it could even be called a Christian heresy - created after Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. It is a "faith" predicated upon a denial of the coming of the Messiah, and as such it does not give worship to God the Father, because it rejects God the Son.

St. Gregory of Nyssa in his "Great Catechism" disagrees, for he taught that monotheism of the Jews of his day, which rejects the tri-hypostatic existence of God, is just as false as the polytheism of the Greek pagans, which denied the unity of the divine nature. The true faith is triune.

Apotheoun, though it is true that the Great Catechetical Oration does situates Christianity as a mean between two errors, namely, Judaism and polytheism. This is a rhetorical trope that organizes St. Gregory's presentation. I am not aware that he anywhere says there is no difference between pagans and the Jews of his day. You are right in insisting that 'the true faith is triune.'

I agree wholeheartedly with you that biblical Israel and Judaism after Christ cannot be simply equated, in a Christian view. Nevertheless, that the Jews after Christ continue to occupy a unique place for Christians is not my own invention, nor that of Nostra Aetate. The idea that God's promise applies in some manner still to the people who seemingly have rejected its fulfillment. and the thought that it might be made good in an eschatological conversion of that other Israel is old and had legs throughout Christian history, presumably under the weight of St. Paul, also the principal warrant for the treatment of Nostra Aetate.

No argument there, but what about beliefs that are closer and less close to the Truth? Atheism is farther from true than theism; Christian protestantism closer to the truth than non-Christians; Monotheism closer than polytheism, etc.?

Monotheism and polytheism are equally close and equally distant to the one true faith, and that is why St. Gregory condemned both equally (i.e., both the monotheism of the Jews and the polytheism of the Greeks).

It is a rhetorical trope to you perhaps, but to me it is a dogmatic truth. I reject theological indifferentism as contrary to the faith, and as an affront to the Great Commission given by Christ the Lord when He personally sent them out to convert the world to faith in the triune God.

As far as Vatican II is concerned, I see many of its decrees as indifferentist nonsense, and I see no reason to accept what the bishops there said on issues that are clearly not divinely revealed (e.g., who Muslims worship). Having studied Islam I can say for a fact that it does not believe in the true God, because the true God is not the cause of evil, while the "god" of Islam is held to be the cause of sin, death, and evil.

The word "them" in the sentence below should say "the Apostles."

"I reject theological indifferentism as contrary to the faith, and as an affront to the Great Commission given by Christ the Lord when He personally sent them [i.e., the Apostles] out to convert the world to faith in the triune God."

I should probably make it clear that I do not find references or quotations from the documents of Vatican II all that important. Quite frankly, Vatican II is irrelevant to me.

As far as the original topic of this thread is concerned, I think it is pointless to wish Muslims a "happy ramadan." It would be better to preach the Good News of Christ to them and in so doing help to bring them out of error and darkness into the truth and light that is found only in Christ Jesus.

Dear Todd,

You mean well, but you are completely wrong here.

Do you mean that everyone who does not believe in the Holy Trinity is damned? There is NO salvific value in any other religion? (Vatican II notwithstanding).

Your position is yours. It is not the Catholic one.

As for you preaching to the Muslims, I would love to see the youtube video!

Todd,

So you are formally Orthodox? Frankly, if you are not - you are just as indifferent. Certainly, the Orthodox themselves would see you as such.

Alex

I am not sure on what grounds a person could credibly claim as dogmatic truth what the Church has never claimed. That St. Gregory distinguishes the true faith from polytheism on the one hand and Jewish monism on the other in no way amounts to your claim that Jews are not categorically different from pagans. Your rejection of 'theological indifferentism' is irrelevant here. You claim something for St. Gregory's work that he himself doesn't claim. When I point this out, you respond that you reject 'theological indifferentism.' I am not sure why my question should be construed as relativistic in any sense whatsoever.

I am equally puzzled by your statements about Vatican II. I didn't appeal to Nostra Aetate to clinch an argument; I said that the categorical uniqueness of the Jews in Christian theology was not invented by me or by Nostra Aetate. Rather, it is characteristic of the Christian tradition. To reaffirm your opposition to 'theological indifferentism' on this point is to change the subject.

It is not relativist to give your friend's kid a card for his bar mitzvah. It is polite. To make of it some kind of litmus test for fidelity to the Gospel is totally idiosyncratic. Would my friend--or his kid--conclude that I had renounced my Christianity because I gave him the card? About as much or more than Muslims have concluded that Pope Francis has renounced his by wishing them a happy Ramadan.

Eastwardlean,

The Trinity is the dogma par excellence, and anyone who denies it does not worship God. Now I know that many modern Catholics have a problem with dogmatic truth and prefer theological indifferentism, but I cannot agree with that position, for as scripture makes clear, if you do not have the Son you do not have the Father.

God bless,
Todd

You can do what you want. I can't stop you from wishing Muslims a "happy ramandan" if that is what you want to do, but I see no point in it. I prefer to tell the Muslims that I know about Christ, but you may do as you wish.