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You mean about Rite-baiting? I'd say that Stuart is a master of it (which I admit sounds pretty strange to say, since I usually think of it as something that the Orthodox do).

So, Peter, you think it would have been a good thing for the Jesuits to get their way, and the Orthodox living in Poland converted (forcibly, if need be) into the Latin Church? Explain to me how that is "rite baiting", a crime or sin which, to my mind, does not exist, and if it did, would probably verge on virtue.

And if you disagree with my take on history, argue it with Bishop Borys (Gudziak)--my conclusions are based on his work.

Well of course I do. In fact, I want all Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics to be forced to become Latin.

P.S. I guess I should have told you that I'm evil, back when we first met. Sorry about that.

O, c'mon, as if you live in the XV century.

I suspected your origin( or your parents) is from Poland, because this type of rite biting ( nice term, btw))) happens always with those who still hold grievances towards the Polish state, even if they did not experience it personally.
it is time to let it go - Poland is not a threat anymore and has lost the imperialistic aspirations.
Contrary to you know whom

Actually, my father's family is of German and Italian descent, my mother's is Romanian Jewish. I have not a drop of Rusyn, Ukrainian, or Polish blood in my veins, unless one of my Jewish great great grandmothers got a little slow running away from the Cossacks. And I just love the way objective historical analysis is condemned as "rite baiting". Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but not to their own history. Facts are just facts, so learn to live with them.

I'm guessing that "you think it would have been a good thing for the Jesuits to get their way, and the Orthodox living in Poland converted (forcibly, if need be) into the Latin Church?" also falls into the category of objective historical analysis. Am I right?

You started this, Peter, by calling this statement:


"rite baiting".

What else am I to think, other than:


After all, the only two alternatives open to the Orthodox in Poland at the time were either communion with Rome as an ecclesial body maintaining its own Tradition, or incorporation into the Latin Church. The Jesuits did not support the former, they wanted the latter. That's just a fact.

I personally think it a Good Thing that they did not get their way, for, imperfect as the Unia was, it did at least preserve some memory of the Eastern Churches in the Latin consciousness, without which (and despite the complications it causes), there would be no ecumenical dialogue today. In fact, it's difficult to say what the Catholic Church would look like today, without the uniates, because of the great Melkite contribution to Vatican II.

The Poles suppressed the Greek Catholics in Poland during the 1920s. They are still trying to do so today, beginning with attempting to deport married parish priests back to Ukraine.

I don't know about anybody else, but I for one am utterly and completely shocked that anyone could think that you were "rite baiting" by saying that. What is this world coming to?

Dear Vox Populi,

Well, I don't see how he is 'extreme.' None of his views are such that I've not read them before from other UGCCers or heard them from a number of our priests from the pulpit.

I do know that he came under attack by a number of our truly "extremely Latinized" Ukrainian Catholics.

His views on St Josaphat are old hat - his detractors probably haven't ever heard something similar before.

They should get out to other parishes more, perhaps.

His views are his own - if the UGCC doesn't allow alternative views, then perhaps we are as bad as those we say are against us?

Alex

Dear Peter the Rock,

You obviously disagree with Stuart here .

How do you see him as "rite baiting?" I'm intrigued by that.

As for the Jesuits at the time of the Union of Brest, Stuart is "rite on."

In fact, the Polish Jesuits at the time made Polonization via Latinization such an agenda, it was no secret to anyone.

A good illustration of this is the cult of the Ruthenian Orthodox martyr, St Athanasius of Brest.

After he was killed (by being tortured, shot in the head twice and then buried alive in a grave he was forced to dig ahead of time), BOTH Eastern Catholics and Orthodox went on pilgrimage to this shrine.

He was not seen as someone who was against "Union with Rome" but as someone who stood up to the RC colonizers. The Polish Jesuits had a problem on their hands and tried to address it by moving the feast of St Josaphat up from November 12th to September 16th or two days before the Orthodox feast of St Athanasius in the hope that people won't want to go on two pilgrimages so close together.

It didn't work, in any event. The Jesuits had a lasting reputation among the Ruthenian peoples (Ukrainians, Belarusyans etc.) as ethnic and religious colonizers, period. St Isidore and the 72 Orthoox martyrs of Yuriev in Estonia, who were ordered thrown into the icy waters, weren't given the alternative to become EC's - they had to become RC's and so betray their integral religious/national identity.

No, Stuart is quite right and, like him or not, his research and historical sense are impeccable. I would trust him to write the history of the UGCC and would then make every member of my Church study it.

I'm sorry you felt offended.

Alex

Dear Vox,

There is a process of reconciliation going on between the Polish and Ukrainian peoples, as it should be. I myself am half of both, being a descendant of the Jablonowskie house.

However, Ukrainians living in Poland today will tell you a different story. My Polish relatives never lost anything of their imperialist stance toward the "malopolskie" Ukrainians. There are Polish politicians around today who share their views and it would be naive, to say the least, to say it were different. I wish it were.

Stuart is more than correct here as well. I feel proud that someone like Stuart can objectively study the history of this entire matter and can come to a sympathetic position in favour of the Ukrainians.

Stuart is someone to be esteemed and cherished. I, for my part, will always defend him and always look up to him.

Alex

Dear Peter,

You are evil? Are you a Polish Jesuit?