www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Schism of East and West

Dude, shut up! It's bad enough people know I'm evil.

[Linked Image] But seriously, no I'm definitely not.

Now that really is a relief!

I was initiallyundecided whether to say more here or not; but I will, in case anyone got the impression that I disagree with everything you're saying. (Not that anyone ever makes such assumptions on internet discussion forums!) Quite the contrary: I think that one of the most effective tools of the UoB was the prospect that, if the Orthodox rejected it, they might be forced to instead become Latin Catholics.

On that note of agreement ...

Gosh, people, can we see past our little battles? yes, I know the idiotic campaign now ( paid by Moscow) and the stupid prawica in Poland yapping about Wolyn and Kresy.

For the past 20+ years there were rational people ruling Poland who finally seemed to understand that they really do not need the Fourth Division of Poland ( I am pretty sure you do know what I am referring to).
Yet there always are losers who seem to not be able to learn anything from history. The stupidity of those could be easily illustrated by getting on a plane provided by not so concealed enemy and getting there all together.

This all does not change the fact that these acid bites at each other fed by inside wars do not matter as a big picture.
To nowadays Ukraine Poland as a country is much more friendly than north-east neighbor.
And it is all what matters, not inside jabs between Polish and Polish Ukrainians. If they have problems - they can complain to EU courts.It is not Pilsudski Poland or PRL.

Well, contrary to you I have every drop of my blood being Ukrainian and as I have PERSONALLY witnessed and lived through some of the history you are just learning from the words of others ( who did not live it through as well, being Americans) I do not consider your facts to be "just facts" but just opinion on the facts and that is a humongous difference.

Oh, please, give me a break.

You are no better than those old grannies spewing hatred towards Ukrainians on Polish radio Maria.

The only difference is - they have lived through some of it, even if it is not the way the see it.
You did not.

You can not deport anybody anywhere in a modern EU country.

He is extreme and reminds me stupid Moskvophiles at the beginning of the last century. Who ALL were payed by Russian empire. ( some of them were able to live through the ruling of the Russians - be careful, what are you wishing for )

Guess the old habits are resuscitated.

he is viewed by a majority in Ukraine as a payed for by Moscow and therefore not taken seriously.

Dear Peter,

Of course, no one ever asked anyone other than the few bishops involved if they wanted to join the U of B. It was done in secret by Orthodox bishops who were initially appointed by the Polish King.

Where I will disagree with Stuart is on the issue of how "rational" and "objective" the decision to go in with Rome was. In fact, there were a number of factors, not all religious, that went into it. Bishops appointed in the then Orthodox Church were chosen and confirmed by the King, not by anyone else. They were often priests who stood to gain much materially from their appointments.

In fact, there were Ruthenian aristocracy, like Prince Constantine Ostrozhky, who were in favour of some sort of union with Rome, but who vigorously opposed the Union of Brest precisely because it was achieved clandestinely and without the bishops involved bringing the aristocracy in on the negotiations - a major breach of feudal protocol.

The Union of Brest brought untold sorrows into the life of the Orthodox Church of the Ruthenians and divided the Eastern Slavs against each other (New Catholic Encyclopedia does a much more scathing job than I could ever bring myself to do here).

Even Archbishop Melety Smotritsky became a broken man when he considered that his polemical works led to the violent death of St Josaphat Kuntsevich. To this day, he is actually honoured by both Orthodox (who consider his going over to the Unia a personal act of repentance for the death and therefore not all that voluntary) and Eastern Catholics (in fact, his beatification was proposed at Rome by the Ruthenian Catholics but this was soundly rejected by the papal authorities who were already smarting from how their uniate experiment aimed at getting Russia into the papal fold exploded in their faces).

Poland certainly thought to Latinize its Ruthenian subjects via the Union of Brest, considered to be a "first step" in the process. And when that didn't take, leaving behind a divided people who fought one another for parishes and the like, the Polish Kingdom itself came to be anti-Union of Brest (the Ruthenian aristocracy had, for the most part, capitulated and had become Polish/Roman Catholic).

I don't know of one single entity, outside the die-hard Uniates of the time (and they did also call themselves "Greco-Uniates"), who wanted the Union of Brest in later years.

It was only with Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky that the EC Church obtained fresh perspectives spiritually and also nationally.

Alex

Peter - I'm offended.

How dare you call me "Dude?"

Well, all I can say is St. Job of Pochaev prey unto God for us.

Dear Chadrook,

Why St Job of Pochayiv in particular?

Alex

Dear Vox Populi,

First of all, I know Dr Krokosh very well, FYI.

Usually if someone in the UGCC disagrees with our mainstream view on things, we will brand him a "Moskophile" and worse.

There is nothing of that in Dr Krokosh at all. As for those in Ukraine who oppose him, perhaps his reputation is that wide.

Our people have always liked to say that "we are all against so-and-so" without every having polled to see if that were true or not.

Please forgive me, therefore, if I'm naturally suspicious of any such sweeping statements.

And to be critical of the history of the Unia in Ukraine does not equal unpatriotic views, subversion or anything of the sort.

I met Ukrainians from Poland (a curious lot) who condemned Patriarch Lubomyr Husar for things I personally know he never said or did.

The fact that elements of "our people" don't like this or that means absolutely nothing. I've heard enough villification of our priests and bishops and others by rude parishioners and those who put themselves up to be "nationalists of the first class" to last me a life-time.

I don't, let me say, agree with a number of Dr Krokosh's conclusions. That doesn't mean I need to see in him an "agent" of some sort.

Again, if we can't allow for open debate within our Church, then we are not the Church we say we are - and certainly incapable of being the bridge between East and West that we think we are in our imaginations.

Alex

Alex, do you think if anybody is going to be a secret agent and receiving money from an enemy he will disclose it to you?
So why do you think that knowing somebody in person negates this possibility?
It does not.
He is not widely known, it is the internet community he is known to because of his ridiculous views which are direct talking points of moscow orthodoxy.
You can not see it as you are from the other side of the pond. You have not heard all those talking points first disguised in the communist history and later ( during perestroyka) in less ideological cover-up when UGCC started to come out from underground existence - you did not read all those articles against it ( in a manner of discussion) numerously published in various media, which THEN, in the late 80s was actually a sign of democratization.
But I DID.
Krokosh's talking points are exactly the repetition of this old russian-origin theme, just a little powdered by ecumenism spices.
100 years ago it was powdered by panslavism, 70 years ago it was powdered by pansovietism and nowadays it is ecumenism - but in essense it is all the same old mantra of the Third Rome and getting away with the obstacles for it's expansion.

Nothing new under the sun.

just to add - on the controversial issues like this one there is only one question to be answered - cui bono - and all the chips fall in the right places immediately.
Krokosh's views are the direct extension of the moscow view on UGCC, so the beneficiary is so obvious it is funny it needs to be explained.
It does not in Ukraine so that is why his name is known and his views are not even considered anywhere. If I won't be an internet user ( from this side of the pond) I won't know about him either