www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology charasmatic byzantines

Does any know of any "charasmatic" byzantine communitys?

We are Charismatic. That is how we are defined. Your local parish is Chaismatic.

Dan Lauffer

Broric,

If you mean that 'charismatic' implies the presence of the Holy Spirit, then I would answer in the affirmative. All Byzantine communities are charismatic in this sense. The distinction between charismata and ministry is another issue, probably one that you are trying to infer. Please note that neither can exist without referring to the Holy Spirit where both are united and where love is the 'glue' to all manifestations of charisma and ministry.

Joe Thur

All catholic churches are charasmatic, I know this. I am refering to the "charasmatic movment" in the catholic church. This is how this group is refered to or called.

Sounds like the "Byzantines" would need major liturgical reforms! I personally have not heard of any "Penticostal" Byzantine Catholic Litugies. You might want to check with Stuebenville. Half the poulation there are "Penticostal - Charismatic" Catholics! LOL

I know about the movment in the roman rite. I also heard of a movment in the orthodox church. I was just seeing if this movment is present also in the eastern catholic rites.

The west had a need for it. The Byzantine's do not.

Dan Lauffer

Yes,

We are charismatic Byzantines in the manner to which you are referring. There are many who are involved in chrarismatic prayer groups, few with in the Byzantine Churches themselves.

We are originally from St. Joseph's in Toronto, OH. Many within the church are, but not active as a prayer group. There was a Melkite parrish in Akron, OH, that had a group, and possibly in Chicago.

The Liturgy of the Byzantine Church moves so powerfully in the Holy Spirit it is true. When we allow ourselves to be open even more to Jesus' Holy Spirit it becomes even greater.

My question is why would you not think the fruits charisms of the Holy Spirit are not as necessary for the Church today and it was in the early church. They were stongly manifested for the first eight centuries in the Church. We are in as much need for this time as we were then. Pentacost was a reality. 3,000 were added to their number that day. Before the Holy Spirit came upon them, they coward in the Upper Room not knowing what to do.

My brothers and sisters, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling with in us. However, we are all to often like a glass of milk with choclate syrup in the bottom. The Holy Spirit is working in our lives, but when we take the spoon and stir it up, then we see things happening, we experience the fullness of our Christian vocation. The glass of white milk becomes choclate milk, but nothing happened until it was stirred. This is the action of the Holy Spirit in our lives. If we allow him to stir up our lives, we no longer have a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of boldness. Not willing to sit back and take the satus-quo of the Christian life.

If for one moment you are so proud as to think the Church has no need of life in the Holy Spirit you are sadly mistaken.

Are you willing to find out? Then ask Jesus what he wants you to know about his Holy Spirit. Be open to what he wants to tell you. Just reach for your Bible, ask him, he will direct you in his Word.

He wants us to live with the zeal of the apostles and early diciples. Ask for an extra portion of his Holy Spirit and see what happens.

In Christ's love,
Rose

God bless you Rose

Christ is Baptized!

Dear all,

I've always believed the Pentecostal movement, with their speaking in "tongues" has been a demon-inspired deception. It is what the Fathers call "Prelest" or spiritual deception. Father Seraphim Rose, of holy memory, wrote extensively on this topic in his book "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future". Anyone who wishes to find out more about the Orthodox and orthodox view of this movement should read that book.

For those without access to the book, the relevant chapter may be found at the link below:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frseraphim_charismatics.htm

The Holy Spirit is acquired through fasting, prayer and years of ascetic practice - it is not simply a matter of having some nut lay hands on you and then muttering gibberish. That is simply shamanistic trance-ritual.

Just my two cents.

Yours in Domino,

Edward

God have mercy on you, scriptue has more authority over your ignorant comments. Maybee you need to read your bible1Cor:12:10:
10 To another the working of miracles: to another, prophecy: to another, the discerning of spirits: to another, diverse kinds of tongues: to another, interpretation of speeches. (DRV)
1Cor:14:5:
5 And I would have you all to speak with tongues, but rather to prophesy. For greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues: unless perhaps he interpret, that the church may receive edification. (DRV)
1Cor:14:18:
18 I thank my God I speak with all your tongues. (DRV)
1Cor:14:39:
39 Wherefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy: and forbid not to speak with tongues. (DRV)


Not every one speaks and tongues and it is the least of the gifts. What you said about recieving the spirit is false. No where in apostilic teaching or the bible does it say we have to earn the spirit it is a gift no to be earned. Agian I appeal to you to learn how to read the bible.Acts:8:18:
18 And when Simon saw that, by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said to him
20 Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee: because )that the gift of God thou hast thought may be purchased with money. (DRV) (DRV) (DRV

[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Broric ]

[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Broric ]

Christ is Baptized!

Dear Broric,

Thank you for your comments. Mine follow.

God have mercy on you, scriptue has more authority over your ignorant comments.

God have mercy on us all. Perhaps you should be careful about invoking God's mercy and calling people ignorant - to do so implies you are less in need of mercy and smarter than I.

Don't assume anyone who is against the Charismatic movement is ignorant or bigoted. Some of us know what we are talking about.

(Where's our friend Serge/Rusnak when we need him?)

Maybee you need to read your bible

I certainly do, but perhaps you need to read yours in Greek like I do.

The references are all to intelligible languages. When the Apostles spoke "in tongues" at Pentecost, it was in languages of men, not gibberish.

I suggest you read that article by Fr Seraphim Rose, who incidentally is incorrupt and has worked many miracles. When you've read the article, then I suggest you rebutt his points if you are able. Otherwise, be silent.

===begin quote===

To make this quite clear, in what follows we shall give the teaching of the Orthodox Church on spiritual deception chiefly as found in the 19th-century summation of this teaching made by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, himself an Orthodox Father of modern times, in volume one of his collected works.

There are two basic forms of prelest or spiritual deception. The first and more spectacular form occurs when a person strives for a high spiritual state or spiritual visions without having been purified of passions and relying on his own judgment. To such a one the devil grants great "visions." There are many such examples in the Lives of Saints, one of the primary textbooks of Orthodox ascetical teaching. Thus St. Nicetas, Bishop of Novgorod (Jan. 31), entered on the solitary life unprepared and against the counsel of his abbot, and soon he heard a voice praying with him. Then "the Lord" spoke to him and sent an "angel" to pray in his place and to instruct him to read books instead of praying, and to teach those who came to him. This he did, always seeing the "angel" near him praying, and the people were astonished at his spiritual wisdom and the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" which he seemed to possess, including "prophecies" which were always fulfilled. The deceit was uncovered only when the fathers of the monastery found out about his aversion for the New Testament (although the Old Testament, which he had never read, he could quote by heart), and by their prayers he was brought to repentance, his "miracles" ceased, and later he attained to genuine sanctity. Again, St. Isaac of the Kiev Caves (Feb. 14) saw a great light and "Christ" appeared to him with "angels"; when Isaac, without making the sign of the Cross, bowed down before "Christ," the demons gained power over him and, after dancing wildly with him, left him all but dead. He also later attained genuine sanctity. There are many similar cases when "Christ" and "angels" appeared to ascetics and granted astonishing powers and "gifts of the Holy Spirit," which often led the deluded ascetic finally to insanity or suicide.

But there is another more common, less spectacular form of spiritual deception, which offers to its victims not great visions but just exalted "religious feelings." This occurs, as Bishop Ignatius has written, "when the heart desires and strives for the enjoyment of holy and divine feelings while it is still completely unfit for them. Everyone who does not have a contrite spirit, who recognizes any kind of merit or worth in himself, who does not hold unwaveringly the teaching of the Orthodox Church but on some tradition or other has thought out his own arbitrary judgment or has followed a non-Orthodox teaching - is in this state of deception." Carnal people enter into rapture from a delight and intoxication attained without difficulty, without self-renunciation, without repentance, without crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal. 5:24), with flattery of their fallen state." And the result, as I.M. Kontzevitch, the great transmitter of patristic teaching, has written,11 is that "the ascetic, striving to kindle in his heart love for God while neglecting repentance, exerts himself to attain a feeling of delight, of ecstasy, and as a result he attains precisely the opposite: 'he enters into communion with satan and becomes infected with hatred for the Holy Spirit' (Bishop Ignatius)."

And this is the actual state in which the followers of the "charismatic revival," even without suspecting it, find themselves. This may be seen most clearly by examining their experiences and views, point by point, against the teaching of the Orthodox Fathers as set forth by Bishop Ignatius.

===end quote===

Such experiences - this "Toronto Blessing" nonesense and suchlike, are much like pagan spirits possesing mediums. I live in the Far East and I've seen strange things with my own eyes - mediums who pierce themselves with multiple swords, spears and skewers and still dance around.. and yell in unknown languages... it's the same thing that we find in the Pentecostal movement.

All this nonsense about being "filled with gifts" and suchlike are mere fancies.

===begin quote===

According to Bishop Ignatius, the deception known as "fancy" is satisfied with the invention of counterfeit feelings and states of grace, from which there is born a false, wrong conception of the whole spiritual undertaking... It constantly invents pseudo-spiritual states, an intimate companionship with Jesus, an inward conversation with him, mystical revelations, voices, enjoyments... From this activity the blood receives a sinful, deceiving movement, which presents itself as a grace-given delight... It clothes itself in the mask of humility, piety, wisdom." Unlike the more spectacular form of spiritual deception, fancy, while "bringing the mind into the most frightful error, does not however lead it to delirium," so that the state may continue for many years or a whole lifetime and not be easily detected. One who falls into this warm, comfortable, fevered state of deception virtually commits spiritual suicide, blinding himself to his own true spiritual state. Writes Bishop Ignatius: "Fancying of himself... that he is filled with grace, he will never receive grace... He who ascribes to himself gifts of grace fences off from himself by this 'fancy' the entrance into himself of Divine grace, and opens wide the door to the infection of sin and to demons." "Thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (Apoc. 3:17)

Those infected with the "charismatic" deception are not only themselves "spirit-filled"; they also see around them the beginning of a "new age" of the "out-pouring of the Holy Spirit," believing, as does Fr. Eusebius Stephanou, that "the world is on the threshold of a great spiritual awakening" (Logos, Feb., 1972, p. 18); and the words of the Prophet Joel are constantly on their lips: "I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh" (Joel 2:28). The Orthodox Christian knows that this prophecy refers in general to the last age that began with the coming of our Lord, and more specifically to Pentecost (Acts 2), and to every Orthodox Saint who truly possesses in abundance the gifts of the Holy Spirit - such as St. John of Kronstadt and St. Nectarios of Pentapolis, who have worked thousands of miracles even in this corrupt 20th century. But to today's "charismatics," miraculous gifts are for everyone; almost everyone who wants to can and does speak in tongues, and there are manuals telling you how to do it.

But what do the Holy Fathers of the Orthodox Church teach us? According to Bishop Ignatius, the gifts of the Holy Spirit "exist only in Orthodox Christians who have attained Christian perfection, purified and prepared beforehand by repentance." They "are given to Saints of God solely at God's good will and God's action, and not by the will of men and not by one's own power. They are given unexpectedly, extremely rarely, in cases of extreme need, by God's wondrous providence, and not just at random' (St. Isaac the Syrian). "It should be noted that at the present time spiritual gifts are granted in great moderation, corresponding to the enfeeblement that has enveloped Christianity in general. These gifts serve entirely the needs of salvation. On the contrary, 'fancy' lavishes its gifts in boundless abundance and with the greatest speed."

In a word, the "spirit" that suddenly lavishes its "gifts" upon this adulterous generation which, corrupted and deceived by centuries of false belief and pseudo-piety, seeks only a "sign" - is not the Holy Spirit of God. These people have never known the Holy Spirit and never worshipped Him. True spirituality is so far beyond them that, to the sober observer, they only mock it by their psychic and emotional - and sometimes demonic - phenomena and blasphemous utterances. Of true spiritual feelings, writes Bishop Ignatius, "the fleshly man cannot form any conception: because a conception of feeling is always based on those feelings already known to the heart, while spiritual feelings are entirely foreign to the heart that knows only fleshly and emotional feelings. Such a heart does not so much as know of the existence of spiritual feelings."

===end quote===

Would you like to address these issue, brother Broric?

In Domino,

Edward

p.s.: is your spelling always this atrocious?

[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Edward Yong ]

The charismatic movement is heresy plain and simple, and import from fundamentalist protestantism that has no place in the Orthodox or Catholic churches.

St. Paul did say that speaking in tongues was good in the verses you cited, but if you read the REST of the bible, you see that in another place he makes the comment that it is useless to speak in tongues without an interpreter.

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have always understood speaking in tongues to mean communicating in a real language one does not know in order to spread the gospel, not babbling in some sort of gobblydygook while raising one's hands up and swaying back and forth. The "speaking in tongues" I have seen is a bunch of unintelligble nonsense that has no place in Christianity.

We have our charismatic saints--all of us are chrismated, which is when we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Those of us who abandon sin have access to this "power"--witness our wonderworking saints such as St. Nicholas (third century) to St. John Maximovitch (died 1966) who could read hearts, knew when people were going to die, cure people, etc.)

Stick with the church's tradition, not wacky consumer-tailored, emotionally manipulating things like the "charismatic movement." All the charismatic movement does is make people think we are insane.

anastasios

PS Dan--not to be a purist here, but you wrote: "The west had a need for it. The Byzantine's do not." There is no apostrophe in "Byzantines." I'm sure you already knew that and just stuck it in there quickly. :-)

I dont care about what some saint says he was a a man and could error in his doctrine. I know how to read - tounges is not jiberish. Its a a Language. You still need to read your bibles both of you- for taking scripture out of context. The reason why paul said not to use it in church unless there some one who could Interpret goes to show your ignorance in the fact that it was a language. 1Cor:14:9:
9 So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue plain speech, how shall it be known what is said? For you shall be speaking into the air.1Cor:14:10:
10 There are, for example, so many kinds of tongues in this world: and none is without voice. (DRV) (DRV)Also, paul says that without interpretation know one can understand. There fore tongues is for self edifaction1Cor:14:13:
13 And therefore he that speaketh by a tongue, let him pray that he may interpret.1Cor:14:14:
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth: but my understanding is without fruit.1Cor:14:28:
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church and speak to himself and to God. My beloved Pope has blessed the charasmatic movment. Give me scripture, cannon, councils to prove its of the devil. As far as people being a saint you should be carful in judging by an incorrupt bodies. The hindu's have saints to with incorrupt bodies. My point is the devil can make conterfits of all God's gifts even tongues. As far earning the Spirt read acts Acts:11:15:
15 And when I had begun to speak, the Holy Ghost fell upon them, as upon us also in the beginning. (DRV) YOU CAN NOT EARN A GIFT OF GOD NO MATTER HOW RIGHTEOUS YOU TRY TO BE Gal:3:2:
2 This only would I learn of you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? (DRV)

To teach other would heresy.

This link will provide information about Fr. Eusebius Stephanou and the Renewal Movement within the Orthodox Church:

http://www.stsymeon.org