www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology charasmatic byzantines

Please forgive for calling you ignorant. I don't know you. However, your statement upset me because you attribute these things as evil. Its things like this that makes fear and division in God's Church. We all have a right to our own opinion. But, we need to be open to the evidence of truth. I agree the devil does these things. But our master says you will know a tree by its fruit. You need to judge the fruit of such experiences. Do they bring people closer to God or not? I am a devout Catholic and our Pope has all ready judged this movement legit and dedicated it to the blessed mother. I regret that people emphasize on the tongue issue. It is the least of the gifts as Paul says. Never the less it is a gift. It benefits mostly the individual because as scripture teaches you speak in mysteries. It can also benefit the Church when some one has a gift of interpretation. How can you say its all devil and were all nuts when scripture clearly teaches it's a gift? As far as Toronto blessing is concerned. I regret that it has turned into a circus. I have been there a few times and I do see people make commitments to follow Christ. Unfortunately, fallen humanity tries to manipulate emotions as most of the people there do. The last time I was there I had to leave its was chaos. But God still works through the chaos. I have traveled to see different movements like that one, in the US. It seems you find the same things happining. Except in the Catholic Church there has been order in subjecting the people in their emotional states to follow the proper pattern of worship. Just like in the book of Corinthians the apostles had to lay down some rules for the people getting out of hand. Any way please forgives me of my rash comments. Also, please judge the fruit before you call people nuts or attribute their gifts of the devil

Anastosios,

There is no apostrophe in "Byzantines." I'm sure you already knew that and just stuck it in there quickly. :-)

Sorry. Correct you are.

Dan Lauffer

Broric,

I tend to agree that the way to the Holy Spirit and It's gifts are, more often then not, hard won. There is a reason St. Anthony went out into the desert. Self Mastery is something so far from me that I can hardly even see it recognizably. But according to Christian, Hindue, and Buddhist, tradition the surest way to peace and those gifts of providence... are from daily surrender to those things of God. That tends to be the harder path, as it is.

You quote scripture, and that's fine, and another person mentions 3,000 people being converted to the Christian fold the day of pentacost. All of this is fine and good, but the problem is that scripture should not be read like you read a newspaper. Numbers are a tricky one in the Bible, because while at time some numbers in the Bible might be historicaly accurate, more often then not it's greater purpose is to denote a significant meaning and it's historical accuracy is questionable. I would take the 3,000 in the same historical light as I would the 6 days of creation and the 7th day of rest. This is why *Tradition* is so important, and should go hand in hand with scripture. The New Testament also says women shouldn't speak in the Church, it also gives rather out-moded models of what a good wife represents.

The Mass is fine. If indeed the Eucharist is what we believe it to be, then it stands to do me well enough, I don't need to speak jibberish.

Broric, I've attended two charasmatic Masses and approximately three charasmatic prayer meetings over the past few years. I've (surprisingly) heard people speak in tongues, but I never heard anyone interpret whatever was being said.

The priest celebratng Mass also started speaking in tongues during his sermon. To tell you the truth, I thought for sure my hearing was gone. Everyone else was attentively listening to him - I've yet to understand what they were listening to.

During the prayer meetings, individuals would literally throw themselves into a prostration claiming to have "experienced" God.

In my personal opinion, these charasmatic functions have replaced the old baptist revival tent meetings.

I have a relative who attends one of these churches regularly and everytime I see her she says she "hasn't fallen over yet!"

Peace,
Loretta

Im sorry for all the emotionalism invovled in these groups. Tongues should not be treated the way it has been by these groups. I disagree with it has been handled, but never the less some of these emotional people are making a difference.

Maximus Christainty is not on any grounds with any other religion. If you think so you have much to learn. Please read your catechism! Different doctine equalls different God. Our church says to only aknowlege the truth in other relgions and use it to bring them to the full knoweldge of God. No where does it teach we share the same doctrine. These other relgions that you speak of are demonic and idol worshipers. Do you know what it means to be a Christian, maybee you need to talk to a priest.

Maximus,

it...(The New Testament)... also gives rather out-moded models of what a good wife represents.

Please offer some examples.

Dan Lauffer

I am always amazed at this type of thing. In the town I live in, there are five Catholic churches. One is a Vietnamese mission, and of the other four, two are so called "charismatic" churches. My own parish is one of these. Once in a while, there will be a notice for a "healing Mass" in the bulletin. Sometimes there will also be talk of a "charismatic Mass," especially every New Years Eve.

The same question comes to mind every time I hear this. "Healing" Mass? "Charismatic" Mass? As opposed to the "Uncharismatic" Mass, with no Holy Spirit, or the "Wounding" Mass in which people get sick, or find no healing? What are these people talking about?

Of course, they mean Masses with people speaking in tongues. Funny, but nowhere in the General Instructions do I find any time for the people to speak gibberish or roll around on the floor. I can't even find places calling for the people to speak in English, without specific statements being given, i.e. "And also with you." No "Begin random gibberish here" instructions that I can find.

I must say, that living in an area with an unreasonable amount of this type of thing, this is not just a case of an approach to personal prayer. Every church in which I have found this stuff, there has been rampant abuse. The Mass in these has become a joke, with absolutely no interest in what the Church believes. There is a very liberal priest locally who recently removed the readings from Mass, and stated that it was because "There is little point in listening to a bunch of empty words." That is what I have found the "Pentecostal catholics" offering me, and I say "Thanks, but no thanks."

God bless,

Patricius

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

I, also, have experienced the charismatic prayer service. I had attended what I had been told was a ecumenical prayer service and a lecture on Satanism and the occult.

The lecture turned out be why we shouldn't do the "Wishing Well" in the morning paper.

I won't even discuss the "ecumenical prayer" service.

I was so upset by all the rantings and ravings going on all around me that I muttered, from deep in my heart, Ne imame inaya pomozi, ne imame inaya nadzhedi, Razvi Tebe Precistaja Divo...

I was immediately rocked by a thunderous HALLELUJA! from the woman sitting next to me. Needless to say, it scared something out of me.... literally....

I had gone with friends and at this point I got up and walked 4 miles home.

This is definitely an experience that I don't intend to EVER REPEAT AGAIN!

the least of the servants....

mark

I have been off the computer for a few days. I am sorry to hear how this discussion has continued.

I deeply regret the bad experience you have had. Unfortunatley, as in many movements within the Church there have been abuses. We have been in the renewal for 25 years and have not experienced this, although I have heard of it.

God is a God of propiety and order. This is a mark that sets the Catholics & Orthodox apart from our Protestant brothers and sisters in charismatic worship. There is a sequence for the Liturgy and it is not to be diviated from. The part that would be different, would be the raising of hands(which is done freely in our Afican-American parishes) and the praying in tongues possibly after the Consecration. If a healing service is to be done it is to follow. The Eucharist, Jesus is the ultimate healer, the other is in addition to but separate from. There is no prayer that is greater than the Divine Liturgy, any thing else is in addition to but separate from. The Our Father the greatest prayer as Jesus taught us.

Anything that brings a disturbance to that has got to be decerned. And things placed in the right order or brought to a halt. There are those who may rest in the Spirit when hands are laid upon them with prayer. They are always aware of their surroundings and can hear everything that is going on around them. What is happening is a healing of some sort, spiritually, physically, or emotionally. Or Jesus may be equipping them for something they need. What we have seen and witnessed of this has always been beneficial to those who experience it, as for ourselves.

As an example, a woman 45 years old, who had been sexually abused by her mother, had never had a good night sleep. She was tormented by constant nightmares. After this rest, she no longer had these fears or dreams again.

To address languages in tongues, I have been in many prayer meetings where there was a visitor from another country, and they knew exactly what the other person was praying in tongues. Several times it was a message for the person hearing it. The Holy Spirit blows as He will. God has many languages that we are not aware of, it is a mystery, it is a communication between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit that cannot be interferred with by the principalities of this world.
As Paul said and is stated earlier, that tongues is for the building up of the body. Paul said I would rather you prophesy, than pray in tongues. However, he followed that by saying I would desire that you all pray in tongues. It is for the building up of the body, not just mine or yours, but everyone. Mother Angelica of EWTN said once that she does not know how she should pray for someone, so she prays in tongues, because the Holy Spirit knows what that person needs.

We were at Notre Dame, gathered with 12,000 people one year. The praise led into total unamity in prayer with tongues, it began to raise so high, in pefect unison and harmony...totally awesome, and they stoped ALL AT ONCE!, it was a total silence, you could have herd a pin drop. People all over the university campus said you could hear them. They were so beautiful.

If we speak in tongues, then there must be an interpreter present. This again will relate to the buliding up of the body. Often, it will lead into the sharing of Scriptures. The Scriptures will usually form a teaching, a definate word usually forms, that the Lord wants to guide us with. Often, people will be led to share things that happened in that week, that they are blown away with being brought to subject.

You see, God has an order in everything. He brought order out of chaos in the universe. He desires to bring more of His order into our lives. For many, it is through the renewal.

God is a God of Mystery and Majesty, it is hard to put Him in a mold, and say this is how He works. He will use as many ways to reach His children as there are children He has created. Likewise, He will use as many forms of prayer for us to communicate with Him, each one of us as a different way of praying.

My whole experience has been a continual increase in faith. Again, nothing takes the place of Liturgical Worship and the prayers of the Church. The Desert Fathers and the teachings of the Early Fathers of the Church are a big reason why this is such a part of my life. We were led into the renewal 25 years ago by Archpriest Micheal Moran, a holy man of God. And I praise God that he used him not only for that, but to bring us into His Church.

I would like to try to answer any questions you have and in some small way, help to heal the wounds you experienced.

In Christ,
Rose

Many writings of the early church fathers are available to us today, sharing about the gifts of the Spirit in their ministries and in the churches. Cyril, Basil, Gregory Nazianzus, and others down through the centuries. St. Augustine near the end of his life, wrote in his famous work The City of God, "We shall do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritians and called down the Holy Spirit on them by the laying on of hands. It is expected that new converts speak with new tongues."

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Rose ]

Well said Rose, however a hardened heart will take more then your truth to change it. People will believe what they want even when there is evidence for it. I know saints like Padre Pio and many others are sometimes called of the devil by the fearful and dividers. I guess when st. John of the cross would levetate people thought he had a demon. Its ok to be afraid I think- but when the truth is presented and the others refuse to hear they endanger themselves by calling the things of God demonic. May God be merciful to those who do such things.

Broric,

In both Eastern and Western liturgies, I have yet to see interpretations of tongues at the liturgies. What is being interpreted is the Scriptures to which you refer. It is interesting how the Church has not incorporated this early phenomenon or practice in its liturgies.

What version of English (or tongue) is in the Bible you read? Douey-Rheims?

Joe

Well, if I may.

There would not be an interpretaion of tongues in liturgy. A tongue should not be spoken during it. The only possible time would be after the consecration of the Eucharist, when praise is offered go Jesus for a short moment in the Roman Mass.

Sometimes at the end of the Mass, just before the final blessing or right after the priest will ask for a time of silence to listen to the Lord, and ask for any word of knowledge or Scriptures that might come forth to be shared then. At that time someone might speak in tongues, and it would be interpreted. So it is a part of but separate from the mass. Again, these are two different gifts, used in different ways to build or exort the people present.

The rubrics are set for the Liturgy, and let me say that I have never seen the use of these charisms in the Eastern Liturgy, except for the raising of hands at the correct times. But we do this as we sing, "Let our prayers rise like incense before you, and the lifting up of our hands as an evening sacrafice." The rubrics are set and should remain in order.

Rose

Dear Broric,

While in university, I wrote a major research paper on the Catholic Charismatic movement and attended many of their services.

I came to appreciate their zeal, their reading of the Scriptures and prayer lives.

The Popes have blessed this movement that was led initally by Cardinal Suenens.

We have Charismatic prayer groups in a number of our parishes, St Demetrius for one.

It was at that parish that a man diagnosed with cancer was cured several days before going in for radiation treatment.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has always had a strong affinity for the experience of Pentecostal grace, as Fr. Lev Gillet calls it.

St Seraphim of Sarov experienced the "Uncreated Light" so much so that this Light was visible on his face.

The journalist, Motovilov, met St Seraphim in the forest and asked him how he could know the Spirit was upon him.

St Seraphim placed his hands on him and told him to look him in the face.

Motovilov said it was like "looking in the centre of the sun."

He also said snow was falling in the forest, but he had no coat on and didn't feel cold.

I feel that the experience of Pentecostal grace in the Eastern Churches is done with much more erudition and sobriety than in the Western Churches.

In the East, there is much more attention paid to self-discipline and ascesis, long prayer, meditation and scripture reading in submission to a holy Elder and advice from the Church's experience in these matters.

When I joined the Charismatic group I mentioned, it was as if I thought that self-discipline was no longer needed in my life.

And one day, during prayer, the words "Sri maranathrustra" came to me and I spoke them out loud.

My spiritual Father later told me that he believed it was not a good thing and was probably a temptation.

I agreed.

As for tongues, there are many stories from the lives of the Eastern Fathers about this.

One Father who never studied Latin, could easily speak in Latin with a visitor who came to see him following three hours' prayer.

Just some thoughts.

Alex

thank you alex for you sharing you words on a touchy subject