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Dear Broric,

You are more than welcome, Servant of Christ and John the Baptist!!

Alex

But note, the language the Father spoke was a real language and not gibberish. Secondly there was a purpose for it and a purpose other than just uttering gibberish for gibberishness sake.

Dear Joseph,

You are right.

However, and I am not defending "tongues," when I was doing my study I recorded several instances of tongue-speaking.

Linguistic anthropologists can break these down and identified some of them as old "dead" languages that are no longer spoken.

Certainly, the New Testament speaks of the gift of tongues and of the gift of understanding of tongues as two separate phenomena.

St Paul, of course, preferred Christians to desire those gifts that helped build up the Church and so insisted on tongues that could be translated for the edification of the people.

My own thesis for what was basically an organizational study is that glossolalia is a fairly "regular" occurrence in different forms where there occurs a drastic change to organizational structure, such as occurred in the RC Church following Vatican II.

I found more Tridentine followers and otherwise traditional Catholics attending the Neo-Pentecostal prayer groups in their churches than others e.g. "liberals."

Reader Sergius once wrote to confirm my findings in his experience as well.

(Isn't it simply GREAT to have him back? I feel so happy I am beside myself!).

Alex

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned "Christian Initiantion & Baptism In the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries" by Kilian McDonnel & George Montague. I think it's published by Collegeville Press. It hits the bases so dear to the Eastern mind: What does Scripture say, what do the Fathers say, what does Holy Tradition say? VEry much worth a read.

I've hung out with charismatics for a long time. I was quite wary for many years. As many of y'all know, I spent a couple of years in the modern Neo-Pagan movement long before it was fashionable, and before the Holy Spirit finally nailed me to the wall. I'd OCCASIONALLY seen the same sort of manifestations on the pagan side of the house as I OCCASIONALLY saw amongst the Charismatics, and having left that stuff for life in Christ, if it was not of God, I wanted no part of it. SO I stood on the edges and watched closely, for a loooooooooong time.

At this point in my life, I am firmly of the belief that discernment is still the rarest of the gifts, and not every utterance made in a prayer meeting is necessarily directly channeled from the lips of God, but that the Holy Spirit still DOES work directly and sometimes miraculously in our lives. I've seen some rather amazing things (and been on the receiving end once or twice, God be thanked). I've also seen the sort of tasteless excesses that turn many people off.

Seems to me that the groups which are the most firmly grounded in reality and grace are the ones which are at the heart of their parishes, with pastoral involvement, rather than on the fringes. They tend to have better discipline, stronger attachment to the fundamental teachings of the Church, and better organization. (I don't know why some folks think that the norms of organizational development and small group process are irrelevant to Church groups!)

There doesn't seem to be a real "movement" of the Charismatic sort amongst Byzantines, but I know a handful of committed and Godly Byzantines who (if asked) would admit to being Charismatic. (I might admit to being a bit of a Charismaniac myself....) Doesn't mean that they spend their time hootin' and hollerin' or speaking in tongues at Divine Liturgy - charismatic leanings are not synonymous with a lack of taste and propriety - but their private prayer and non-liturgical prayer would likely be vivified a bit. Dunno if there's a fundamental East/West difference in the experience - for myself, I've never been subject to visions or fireworks, for the most part it just gave me a greater hunger for silence.

Of course, since it's said that Grace perfects nature, and y'all know I mouth off too much, mebbe it's just God's way of telling me to shaddup.

Cheers on a WARM Monday,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Sup,

this charismatic renewal nonsense really makes me crack up. You expect me to believe some guy who falls off his chair is full of the holy spirit? That's absurd.

Why must we abandon great things like the Jesus Prayer and Divine Liturgy and replace them with atrocities like being 'slain in the spirit'. Must we resort to this modern movement to satisfy our desire to experience God?

Toodles,
Dr. Bob

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

Dear friends,

The conservative-charismatic connection in the Roman Catholic restoration movement is a development of about 10-15 years' standing that fascinates me. Marching for prolife I have befriended several dear people who happen to be charismatics.

Until now, with the notable exception of Fr Eusebios Stephanou mentioned by Fr Seraphim Rose, I have noted the near-absence of this Protestant import from Orthodox and even Byzantine Catholic life. Dan Lauffer repeats the excellent point Fr Thomas Loya made to him (also echoing Bishop Kallistos) that the Church as such IS "charismatic', "Spirit-filled', etc. Something the Orthodox tradition perhaps never lost touch with in practice, therefore next to no charismatic importation here. For example, in Orthodoxy much of the tradition of monastic eldership is truly charismatic. There have been plenty of lay spiritual fathers and mothers. Monasticism itself, rightly understood, can be seen as such.

The movement and its people have a lot going for them, especially in their more recent Catholicizing period: prolife, devoted to Our Lady and the Blessed Sacrament and thoroughly small-o orthodox.

Having said that, historically I have agreed with Fr Seraphim, Edward and Dustin in their misgivings about the movement as such.

To the Fr Seraphim quotation I will add some of my recent private correspondence with Brendan (all quotations are of me):

FUS (Franciscan University of Steubenville — I visited there once 13 years ago) is a charismatic-movement, culturally protestantized wing of the restoration movement — "What Would Jesus Do?' (WWJD) fads, silly bans on (or at least strong discouragement of) dating or unmarried couples displaying any physical affection, and Oral Roberts tent meetings with glossolalia and guitars, peculiarly Catholic charismatism involving apparition-chasing... Anything except the Tridentine Mass or the Byzantine Liturgy (though icons are OK).

I see now there is some crossover between Byzantine Catholics and "the movement'. For instance I read with fascination now-gone member Fr Bryan's account in the "Where Are the Byzan-Teens?' thread. With Fr Seraphim's warning still echoing in my ears, I however won't dismiss all of Fr Bryan's or Rose's experiences out of hand as prelest'. The initiation with the laying on of hands with its quasisacramental "baptism in the Spirit', the glossolalia and the "prophecy'? Dangerous. Protestant liturgics and music (the "praise' and "worship' guitar music of evangelicalism)? NO. "Holy laughter' and barking like dogs? NO. (Msgr Ronald Knox warned of these delusions too — he called it "enthusiasm'.)

But enthusiastically singing and praying the traditional Byzantine Liturgy with congregational singing (� la Ruthenian usage)? Yes. Congregations adopting the orans position for the Our Father? OK. I did it once with the congregation at Holy Transfiguration Melkite Church in McLean, VA and liked it.

So the movement as a whole and some of its vital components (like those I mentioned above) are prelest', but God works where He will and I won't deny the movement may have helped some people. I use a Book of Common Prayer but that doesn't make me a disciple of Thomas Cranmer; catching some of the joy of the charismatics doesn't necessarily make one a Pentecostal.

I rented an apartment for nine years from people like that: a "covenant community' complete with "shepherding/discipling' and rumours of arranged marriages (which they vehemently denied).

I never was a member. They found me too weird to be recruitable and so basically ignored me or made fun of me when they thought I couldn't hear them. (I was trad back when trad wasn't cool, you see.)

There were admirable things about this group — in many ways orthodox (as conservative Protestants can be) plus their emphasis on community is part of the mystery of the Church, but the aspects I mention above made it "verrrry scary, kids'.

These socially conservative Billy Graham wannabes were in bed with Amchurch here.

I told Brendan that this group in its heyday recruited most of its members from a local "Catholic' college and, perhaps a relic of the community's late-1970s protestantizing thrust, actually was in bed with the heretical "campus ministry' (sharing resources and some staff), despite the charismatics' social conservatism and the campus ministers' liberalism.

All they had in common really other than a vague "it's all about Jesus' sentiment was a liking of do-gooder social gospelling (they venerated Tony Campolo) and a contempt for traditional Catholicism.

Both groups were liturgically militantly low-church. "Strummin' for Jesus'.

The college, a frat/jock/yuppie establishment in the worst nouveau riche "Catholic' tradition in America (heavily Irish-American too), was uneasy with the group's proselytism and eventually kicked it off campus. Students complained it was a cult and they were right. (Not that the fratboy scene was any better, nor was the secondhand PCness of "campus ministry'.) Perhaps the community members' rediscovery of Catholic theology and devotions (but not liturgy) ended their marriage to "campus ministry'.

I also observed to Brendan, who has similar firsthand experience with charismatics, including "covenant communities', that the nice older people I've met who are in the movement seem to be using tertiary things like Marian devotion and Perpetual Adoration, along with the Protestant-style enthusiasms, as emotional substitutes for the traditional Mass. The real center of Cathodox church life, the traditional Liturgy/Mass, is what these people hunger for but perhaps don't realize it.

The Orthodox/Byzantine Catholic tradition, because it remains communal, liturgical, traditional and unshakeably theological, seems miraculously immune to the American Catholic veering towards Protestantism culturally that the charismatic movement is part of. "WWJD' pietism fits in with American culture. The Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, or a good liturgical-movement Tridentine solemn Mass or conservative Novus Ordo Mass, does not.

BTW, there are Pentecostals who not only are in heresy but, like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, are no longer Christian: the "oneness' Pentecostals deny the Trinity. I once read an article — in a charismatic magazine — describing how one minister had several "gifts' and continued to have them even after falling into such apostasy. Makes you wonder who the "gifts' came from.

One local charismatic leader, a layman with a radio program, used to have his yearly prayer breakfast on a Sunday at my old Ruthenian Catholic church, and his people would come to Divine Liturgy. (Again, part of the conservative-charismatic connection?) Sadly, though, liturgically the experience didn't seem to rub off on them. They might have dismissed it as "foreign' with their low-churchness considered "normal'.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Rose,

I think the Byzantine shyness with charismatic gifts is similar to their refusal to read the Book of Revelation at their liturgy. Both lend themselves to a wide variety of (mis)interpretations. Though these phenomena go on, there is no clearly defined method of interpretation. History shows how the Church opted to transfer all its authority to the offices of the church (bishops) rather than allowing charism to be the criterion of teaching. The Church also confined interpretation to the domain of the scriptures, not tongues. What is said in prophecies carry no Tradition of authority. Any 'movement' in the Church that does not contradict church teaching can be approvable. The same goes for private apparitions. Yet neither tongues or private revelations carry weight.

BTW, a theologian once noted (can't remember the one doing the study) that charismatic renewals have been noted to happen during massive changes in the church and during times when the conventional authority has rejected the duties assigned to their office.

Joe

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Reader Sergius,

"Conservative Novus Ordo Mass does not (fit in with American culture").

I know most of the posts here are against the Charismatic Renewal, but permit me to respond to this portion of your post here with

Praise the Lord! Thank you Jesus! Alleluia! Glory to God!

O.K., now I'll go back to being the conservative fellow I really am.

Alex

Edward Yong

I wanted to thank you for your URL link. My wife who is in the process of converting to Byzantine Catholic from a Protestant background found this a most interesting read. She wanted me to thank you.

Serge, thanks for coming back! I really enjoy your post and find you most intell. challenging.

This whole charasmatic movement in the Church makes me nervous. I don't see the need for it unless the Latin/Eastern Churches wants to start a whole new rite for the USA for those protestant converts. Then I would not have a problem with it. You know the Church is allowed to grow, but She needs to becareful how She grows.

My 2 cents worth!
(that and $0.50 might get you a cup of coffee )

Dear RC@work,

Actually, you are right on!

The Catholic charismatics DO have a "Charismatic Rite" that the churches I was studying celebrated on occasion.

Recently, His Holiness has urged all Catholics to pray within a Trinitarian devotional perspective.

This is another case in point where the Byzantine Catholic Church has always done something that a Pope has asked Catholics to do.

Alex

Hi to everyone,

I have enjoyed reading the posts. When we are one in the Lord, despite our leanings, we can discuss and share our concerns in fellowship.
I have learned a lot reading them and gaining understanding of where you are coming from.

For us, there is nothing greater than the joy of being in the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist through His Divine Liturgy. There is nothing that can replace that prayer. Our involvement in the renewal has only made that desire stronger.

Anything which happens in a charismatic gathering is to be in line with God's Word and the teaching magisterium of the Church. Someone shared about the lives of the saints and there experiences. This is what the Lord calls all of us to, it is not just for those few. We may never lay on the ground in prayer as St. Mary of Egypt did, and elevate off of it so to speak, but Jesus wants the Holy Spirit stirred up in us so that we are that egar to enter into conversation and visit with Him. Just to be that close with Him. "Did my heart not burn within me," as they said at the breaking of the Bread, that is what Jesus wants. That is why we were sealed with the Holy Spirit that we might grow in greater union with Him.

"For it is not by power, nor by might, but by my Spirit says the Lord." For it is not whether we use these gifts for the purpose of evangelization, but that we evangelize. That is what we were commissioned to do. It is the fire that burns within, giving us the zeal of the Holy Spirit to carry out the Great Commission. So many who were dead to the Lord...my husband and a priest friend has a discussion about dead wood in the church pews...my husband told the priest it was not dead wood, but hard wood in potential. That is what we are called to do, to bring out the brilliance of the wood, that it glows before Jesus. Another priest, one of our son's Godfather, complained about a man who brought his paper to church with him every Sunday and set in the front pew and read it. The priest became very angry and would even talk to the man during the Mass because it disturbed him so. After we spent many days discussing this matter with him(the priest), he began to understand that he must love the man through the power of the Holy Spirit(which I am sure he knew, but we all need to be reminded sometimes, and Jesus calls us to a deeper love.) He did, the Holy Spirit made the change in the heart of the priest, and the man put down his paper on Sundays and quit bringing it to Church. You see the Holy Spirit has to change us, and this is what the charismatic renewal is about for so many people, their hearts are changed, they are no longer made of dead wood, but become a beautiful, vibrant part of God's Holy Church.

In the peace of Christ!
Rose

Rose,

I am reminded of something that Archbishop Gabriel Ganaka of Jos, Nigeria said some years back at a small conference (on evangelism) I attended in Ypsilanti, Michigan.

Some of his brother bishops were not happy that the Archbishop was on good terms with Charismatics. "Why do you deal with those fanatics?" they asked. His Lordship has one of those wonderful oratorial, rich voices with the rolling African intonations. With great dignity he replied "It is easier to control a fanatic than to wake the dead."

And the choir sang, "AAAAAAAMENNN!!!!!!"

Cheers,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Mother Sharon,

Yes, and isn't there a Charismatic Greek Orthodox parish that publishes LOGOS publications in your Grand Republic somewhere?

They were very much against tongues and gave the whole thing a tongue-lashing.

But when their priest went to serve the Liturgy, he began speaking in tongues.

Anyone know more about this?

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Originally posted by Broric:
We all have a right to our own opinion. But, we need to be open to the evidence of truth.

I suggest you also keep your mind open. I'm not closed to the chance possibility of God working a miracle through shamanistic trance-rituals - are you open to the possibility that this movement is little more than that?

You need to judge the fruit of such experiences. Do they bring people closer to God or not?

By their fruits ye shall know them indeed, but let me apply you another case. Does the protestant heresy, simply because it brings millions of people closer to God, come from God?

I am a devout Catholic and our Pope has all ready judged this movement legit and dedicated it to the blessed mother.

The Pope is not infallible on this matter. If the current Pope has dedicated this silliness to the Mother of God, then all I can say in response is, Most Holy Mother of God, save us!

I regret that people emphasize on the tongue issue. It is the least of the gifts as Paul says. Never the less it is a gift.

Ah, but whom from? Even Satan can do this, and I believe this whole tongues issue is, at best, mass hysteria. At worst, it comes from the Dark one himself.

It benefits mostly the individual because as scripture teaches you speak in mysteries. It can also benefit the Church when some one has a gift of interpretation. How can you say its all devil and were all nuts when scripture clearly teaches it's a gift?

"Tongues" in the NT, which you keep throwing at our faces, happens to be "glwssai", which in Greek has the meaning of "languages". It does not mean gibberish. If one prays in gibberish, how does one know one is praising God? For all you know, you might have been uttering the vilest blasphemies.

As far as Toronto blessing is concerned. I regret that it has turned into a circus.

It was a circus to begin with - the demons rejoice to see such disorder.

I have been there a few times and I do see people make commitments to follow Christ.

Montanists tried to make committments to follow Christ as well.

Unfortunately, fallen humanity tries to manipulate emotions as most of the people there do.

Either that or the demons who have possessed the poor misguided followers are having a wonderful time.

Also, please judge the fruit before you call people nuts or attribute their gifts of the devil

I have seen the fruits - common prayer with heretics and an indifference to Sacred Tradition of the Church. If that's the gift of the spirit, one has to ask where this spirit comes from.

Well said Rose, however a hardened heart will take more then your truth to change it. People will believe what they want even when there is evidence for it.

I would say the same to you. I would additionally warn you against pronoucing other people's hearts to have been hardened - just as I make no judgement on the hardness or softness of your heart, I suggest you refrain from saying such things about anyone else. Only God can see into a man's heart.

Its ok to be afraid I think- but when the truth is presented and the others refuse to hear they endanger themselves by calling the things of God demonic. May God be merciful to those who do such things.

May God be merciful to us all.

In closing, all I can say is,

"Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in praelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium. Imperet illi Deus, supplices deprecamur: tuque, Princeps militiae coelestis, Satanam aliosque spiritus malignos, qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo, divina virtute, in infernum detrude. Amen."

In Domino,

Edward

p.s.: I'd have said it in Greek and Slavonic for good measure, but I'm too lazy to translate it into Attic, and I don't have it in Slavonic...

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Edward Yong ]

I hate to be repetitive but here goes. I am very thankful for the Charismatic renewal, as it has played a very important part in my live. I agree with you when you say that you must judge a work by its fruit. Well, in my life the Charismatic Renewal has born great fruit. There was a time in my life when my life was very similar to St Augustine's before his conversion. Also I was very lukewarm in the practice of my faith. Then I went to a Charismatic Meeting someone prayed over me down I went, when I got up I was never the same. The temptations that used to trouble me in the past now are no bother to me. And it is all due to the grace of God. Belive me, before this I tried everything but nothing seemed to work. I Prase God for this freedom that He has granted me. One Point when someone prayes for the Holy Spirit it is not a sign that he has arrived but it is only a sign that he has just begun!! Yes I do pray in Tongues to myself a lot, The time that I seem to do this most often seem to be after Holy Communion, when I am concious of the physical presence of the Lord. One of the need that I see that the prayer meetings fullfill is the need to praise God. It is nice to come together to praise God and not have to watch the clock. That is one of the things that I love most about the Eastern Rite is that the sense of worship is there. I don't thing that Satan likes it when people are being set free from sinful habits that have been plagueing them.
Don't forget that when we ask God the Father for the Holy Spirit that is one prayer that we do not have to worry about because He will not let a counterfit get in. If people are being set free and set on fire to want to love and serve Jesus with all of their hearts,souls and minds what is wrong with that?
Yours in the Love and Joy of the Holy Spirit
Theodore Perkoski
PS I like both Vinyard and Hillsong music and Eikona