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Hi again:

First of all, Alex, your most kind words are also most undeserved, but nonetheless most appreciated.

Thank you.

Now to David's Post:


I guess you draw the line within yourself, because you know when you're doing something to please the Lord, be open to His motions and when you're just doing it to be in the spotlight.

If you ever happen to attend a prayer group meeting where you see things that are wrong, just step out and after the meeting bring your concerns to the leadership. If you're not satisfied with this discussion, I would suggest not to return to that specific group. May God show you when it is appropriate to raise the issue to the pastor.


I think that the position of considering the "tongues" as "the language of angles" is not entirely correct.

Have you ever dated, David? Haven't been with your girl/wife at peace, just enjoying your togetherness when one whispered to the other a few utterances that were otherwise meaningless sounds? Aren't these sounds actually full of a meaning that you couldn't quite express with words?

Are you a father? Don't you recognize what your baby needs from the way he/she cries? Are you able to distinguish a prank-cry from a pain-cry from a hunger-cry from a changemydaiperNOW-cry? Isn't that a very clear and expressive non-verbal language?

You see, our verbal language comes from our brain cortex and it is good to pray with that, but we humans are more than that. We have other "parts" of ourselves that also need to get in touch with God from time to time and with the over-emphasis that our culture makes in our rational mind, it is really a Gift from God that we are ever able to do that.

I think of the Gift of Tongues in this sense. Of course the temptation comes to put too much emphasis in these forms of prayer to the point of completely disregarding rational prayer to favor the "feel good" stuff that others so rightfully criticize.

Both extremes are equally bad because both fail to acknowledge ourselves AS GOD CREATED US. And that makes us kind of hypocrites, don't you think? Even when we pray to God. Not good.

When God is trying to use the Gift of Tongues to send a specific message, He will provide for interpretation. God never does half the work.


And that is why an position that dwells exclusively along these lines is incorrect. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a new sacrament, it is just the moment when something "clicks" inside of you and now being a Christian makes a lot of sense.

It is very difficult to describe, just as it would be difficult to describe "Green" to the blind. But even if no spectacular signs happen around it, people usually can remember the specific circumstances much better than they can remember, say, Sept. 11th. It is a life-defining event.


One thing is for sure: God is not cumplimenting us for our faith.

Thr Gift of Tongues generates a lot of hype among people relatively new to the Charismatic "experience". When people grow in faith, tongues sometimes become more matter-of-fact and perhaps even less frequent, as the Lord starts dispensing the really "big" Gifts and making the Fruits of the Holy Spirit blossom, which was the plan to begin with.

I hope this helps a little.

Shalom,
Memo.

Memo,

You do have a way with words. Might I add that I am leery of groups which claim that the experience & manifestations accompanying the baptism in the HS always include X, Y and Z, or they're not "real." (i.e. if ya don't pray in tongues, it isn't the Real Thing.)

God is not constrained to meet our rules & expectations. (Remember when in Acts He filled some folks with His Spirit even before they were baptized?) It's funny how St. Paul doesn't seem to think that tongues are mandatory, but some charismatic folks know better. Different folks, different experiences, different gifts. And discernment is still the rarest....

Best,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Hi Sharon:

I totally agree with your post.

Shalom,
Memo.

The day we get "charismatic" Byzantines (or Orthodox) is the day I start praying elsewhere or at home. To be perfectly honest, this charismatic stuff scares me. If I don't understand what you're saying in the "Spirit", then I'm not part of 'your' community because I don't understand you. And, if I'm not in the inner circle, then I'm not in any of these circles. And it's not a true "ekklesia" or 'church' because there is NO openness to anyone who comes to the door. Maybe a cult?


Dr. John, I actually agree with you on this, 110%!

MK

Memo,
First I want to say Thank You for taking the time to answer my questions in a way that I can understand.

But, if you do not mind, I have a few follow up questions for you.



I just do not see this anywhere in Scripture. The Gift of Tongues Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians was that of speaking in languages that unbelievers understood. He also went on to say;

1 Corinthians 14:27-28
27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpert.
28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and God.



From my, admitedly small, experience it is treated as a sacrament. It creates two groups, the have's and the have not's. From what I have seen those who do not show evidence of this are treated as lesser christians.

As for something "clicking", this happened for me on December 6th, 1989, at around 8:30pm, when I opened my heart and life to Jesus. This is when I became "born again". This journey was completed and a new one started at the Easter Vigil of 2000 when I was chrismated.

As I said, you did help a bit, but you did not sway me.

David

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Ed,

While I fully concur that the Catholic Charismatic movement has suffered from abuses (as has just about everthing else in the Church) and discernment is required with it (as with everything else), I believe the movement in its inception at Duquesne and its continued existence in Papal and Episcopal approved and guided associations like Ralph Martin's FIRE are indeed a blessing and the fruit of the Spirit. Please do not throw out the baby with the bath water and ascribe everything associated with the Catholic Charismatic movement as the work of the Enemy. Personally, it is not my cup of tea either but I do not feel need to denigrate that which does not appeal to me. I have personally seen too much good come from those who a members.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Dear Friends,
Christ is among us!
I confess! I am a Charimatic Byzantine Catholic priest! I have been a priest nearly 20 years and involved in the renewal for nearly thirty! I even go to Charismatic Conferences! So some of you will go running from my Churches, I guess.
St. Simeon the New Theologian gave extensive teachings on the use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit within the Byzantine Church. St. John Chrysostom complained about the lack of the use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church of his time.

The best way to help insure that Charismatics do not become "Charismaniacs" is for them to explore the Fathers of the Church on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. There were several good patristic-oriented texts on the subject written in the mid-ninties.

The Power of the Holy Spirit is displayed all over in our Lirugical Life and Prayers. Activating these prayers in our lives help to make the Holy Spirit a "more real" person in our spiritual lives.
Fr. V.

Dear Father,

Could you take the time to share how you see the "charismatic experience" as enhancing the life of our worship?

Memo has done a great job of explaining how these gifts relate to our relationship in the natural life. How then do they increase the understanding of the Mystery of Worship in the Eastern spirituality?

Hope my question makes sence.
Rose

Hi:


Then do not interfere.

Do not expect to understand everything that happens in the Church you belong to. You won't. As long as you accept this and respect the spirituality of others, nobody will mess with you.

As you can see, there are a handful of charismatic Byzantines, and there will be at least a handful of charismatics everywhere you go.

I read the other day that the number of charismatic Christians of all denominations is now greater than the number of all Protestants and Orthodox (charismatic or otherwise) combined.

If this is indeed a fact, you'll just have to live with it. What is for sure is that the charismatic movement throughout Christianity, is one of the signs of our times.


That is not entirely true, is it? If you attend, say, a Japanese Catholic Mass, do you understand everything (or anything) that is being said? And just because of that you and the Japanese Catholics are not in the same community?


This is absolutely not true. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the Holy Spirit (this is, the official charismatic movement within the Catholic Church) is NOT a secret society of any kind. Anybody and everybody is welcome to join in and of course, go through a learning process to become proficient in the activities that we do.

The doors are WIDE OPEN.

Please do remember that the remark "The doors, the doors in Wisdom let us attend" just before the Creed in the Byzantine Liturgy used to be a request for the doors to be CLOSED.

So I don't see why closing the door for some specific activities is so incompatible with the notion of Church. Could you please elaborate?

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

The Charismatic Catholic movement did indeed connect me with the Eastern Church in a way that I had not been before.

In terms of "The Doors," you make a good point.

When I studied the Charismatics, there were some members who, in the group I studied, couldn't speak in tongues. They were therefore denied "full membership" even though I could not arrive at a definition (the leadership refused to tell me what it was) of what "full membership entailed.

I think this just may be the reference here.

If this is true for some groups, and I'm not saying it is for all, then this is wrong.

The Church had her deacons ask those not yet enlightened through Baptism to leave the Church before the Canon of the Divine Liturgy as they could not participate in Holy Communion.

But, after a period of training, Baptism was offered to all.

Speaking in tongues (and I never got into that when I was there) is something that should not be a "litmus" test of membership.

Another point that bothered me was the seeming lack of asceticism and "matter of factness" of receiving the Gifts.

The Spirit will give His Gifts when He wants, not when we want, and it seemed that I was being forced to speak in tongues when I could not.

In the group I was with, I was made to feel like an incomplete Christian and so I eventually left.

I think the Charismatic movement needs to face certain issues within it.

But, for me, Pentecost is something I experience during each and every Divine Liturgy, during Pentecost season and in my life in Christ.

My Latinized background reflected an overt absence of the Role of the Spirit in my life, something that the Charismatic movement reawakened and I was finally led to a more Easternized Byzantine perspective and way of life that is my true Gift from the Spirit.

Alleluia (3x)!

Alex

Hello:


And, respectfully, where do you see in Scripture the word "Trinity"?

As with almost every other topic, you'll find Sola Scriptura characters on both sides of he charismatic issue. That is why we need our Church to guide us in the interpretation of Scripture.


David, I think you have a fixation with "understanding". St. Paul is talking about tongues being signs for the unbeliever, but he never says that the unbelievers are supposed to understand all tongues, in fact, in verse 23 he seems to imply the opposite.


Then your experience with charismatics is not according to the guidance of the Catholic Church. What you describe sounds like a Pentecostal extremist group, where you have to speak in tongues or else you're not saved.

This is completely alien to the Catholic understanding of the charismatic movement.

Indeed we do have some splinter groups that have a tendency to go that way, but they do so at their own peril and often against the advise of their pastors. Sadly, it is not unusual that these groups eventually break communion with Catholic Church altogether.

As I wrote before, the enemy will try to do his thing with every soul that's in the battle. If these souls reject the protection from their pastors, they make themselves all that more vulnerable to the devil's traps, which can come in tremendously attractive forms.


Then you know what I mean and you'll probably agree that your brain cells are more likely to forget about sphincter control before they forget that evening.

That was your Baptism in the Holy Spirit and it is very significant that you say it was a process that was completed when you received Holy Chrismation. And you don't need tongues, or healings, or prophecies, or any of that stuff. Well, so you don't, no big deal.


And I am glad to be of any help. I am not trying to sway you or anybody else. If you've had a bad experience with charismatics or pentecostals, then The Lord and you will have to deal with that. I can only offer you my humble prayers.

What really hurts is people throwing out blanket condemnations towards a movement that has done such a great good to me and to so many others. I think it is so un-Christian, that it just really hurts.

Shalom,
Memo.

So I don't see why closing the door for some specific activities is so incompatible with the notion of Church.

INTOLERANCE IS A VIRTUE.

Moses: didn't tolerate the Israelites worshipping Egyptian gods. (How "judgemental' of him.)

St Elias: didn't tolerate the prophets of Baal.

Our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ: didn't tolerate moneychangers in His Temple.

St Nicholas, St Athanasius and Pope St Leo I: didn't tolerate people telling lies about Our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, and doing so in the name of the Church ( "Oh, how mean and disrespectful — criticizing nice Fr Arius! He's a PRIEST!' )

St Mark of Ephesus and St Job of Pochaev: didn't tolerate false union at the expense of the Greek and Ukrainian Churches.

The English Catholic Martyrs: didn't tolerate the Protestant heresy being forced on them in England. (How "unecumenical' of them.)

St Alexis Toth: didn't tolerate the attempted nearly successful destruction of the Ruthenians' Church in America.

The freedom riders in the 1950s-1960s US: didn't tolerate unfair treatment of black people.

Judie Brown: doesn't tolerate the murder of unborn babies.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

One intresting point is eventhough St Paul puts a lot of cautions on the use of toungues, he ends up stating that I pray in toungues more than all of you.
No, it is not required for our Salvation, neither is the Jesus Prayer (which I love) or any of the many other devotional practices we all have.
I would love to see a service like what happened with St John of Kronstadt, where he was preaching and the Holy Spirit fell convicting the people of there various sins, so that they all wanted to go to confession so he said for them to confess there sins outloud before the iconostasis.
(If I have made a mistake please correct me as I would like to learn.)
I agree that the Eastern Rite is very "compatable "with the charimatic renewal, particularly with the emphasis on praise and worship.
Yours in Christ
Ted
PS Here's wishing you as my Serbian Friend would say a Happy Last Blast before the Fast

Dear Theodore,

We Old Calendarists have some more time for blasting yet . . .

I wouldn't really say the Jesus Prayer "isn't necessary for salvation."

Certainly, the practice of saying it many times a day and otherwise availing ourselves of its salvific devotion is one thing.

But we all need to invoke the Name of the Lord Jesus and beg Him for His mercy throughout life! And this is the best way to do it.

Even Protestants have what they call the "Sinner's Prayer" which is basically the Jesus Prayer by which "One confesses with one's mouth" etc. that is a feature also of charismatic groups.

And I think the Jesus Prayer is much more central to the basic nature of our faith than speaking in tongues or other practices.

Certainly the Jesus Prayer is the way by which we are introduced to the Prayer of the Heart, but the Church enjoins on us the duty to pray this prayer throughout our lives and invoke the Lord's mercy without which we cannot be saved.

The event in the Life of St John of Kronstadt occurred because this holy and zealous priest of God promoted more frequent Holy Communion.

In the Russian Church especially, one needed to go to confession before each and every time one went to communion.

And when St John saw the people weren't coming forward, he bluntly asked them why out loud. When they told him it was because they weren't to Confession, St John told them to confess their sins out loud and then gave them all absolution.

It was an Orthodox "General Confession" .

I wonder if our Churches would like such a form of Confession today, do you think?

Alex

That must be why our Liturgy now says, "With wisdom let us profess our faith."

No more closing of doors. Only wide-open icon screens. No more secrets.