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Dear Theodore,

Let me add my voice to yours and say that while I no longer attend the Pentecostal meetings whose members I studied, it was my brief association with the Charismatic Movement that taught me to search out the Byzantine Church and return to the faith and traditions of my ancestors.

And anything that does that, can't be all bad . . .

Alex

My opinion is this, the more approved Rites we have can only make us better citizens in the Eternal City.

New rites are fine, as long as they have the same content and follow the same principles (translated into different cultures as needed) as the traditional ones. I know of no approved "charismatic rite'; except for a few Byzantines and even one Tridentine layman I know of, all charismatics are Novus Ordo Roman Rite.

Edward, well put.

Tropar' to St Michael, in Slavonic:

Небесных воинств Архистратиже, молим тя присно мы недостойнии, да твоими молитвами оградиши нас кровом крил невещественныя твоея славы, сохраняя нас, припадающих прилежно и вопиющих: от бед избави нас, яко чиноначальник вышних сил.

O ye foremost of the heavenly host, we who are not worthy beseech you that by your petitions you encompass us with the shadow of your immaterial glory. Preserving us who kneel and cry ceaselessly, deliver us from oppressions, since you are the prince of the ranks of the dominions on high.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear All,

It has been very enjoyable for me to follow the discussion on this thread. I have a related query though that has an ulterior motive....

Several of you have commented on the perception that the gifts of the Spirit are given in an informal way on laity in particular - the maxim that the Spirit "blows where He may." The reason I'm wondering about this is that I am currently pursuing an MA in systematic theology & this semester studying the Trinity. Our assignment is to write a paper on some aspect of the Holy Spirit and I was toying with the idea of how the Spirit operates through the leadership (i.e. clergy, magisterium, bishops, etc) of the Church.

Often I think a false dicotomy is presented between a purely human institutional church that is assumed lifeless at best or corrupt at worst, and the intervention of the spirit through individuals who "shake-up" or challenge this "sinful structure." (not my words, but what is often characterized). I argue this does an injustice to our ecclesiology, presenting church polity as a necessary evil. Also, I feel that the title "prophetic" is far too easily bestowed upon those who are in fact [IMO] dissenters from Christian orthodoxy (small-o within all branches of Christendom). At least that's how I read it being a student at a liberal (IMO) theology school.

As someone alluded, the official church is already "charismatic", Spirit-filled and constituted by the Holy Spirit. So why this hankering for some other, albeit informal, membership? Is it because of the modern cultural distrust and skepticism of authority?

Thoughts?

PAX

Benedictine

I have always thought that popular culture offers a "Nestorian" "heresy" of the Church. Like Christ is both a fully human and fully divine person, so the Church (his bride, as we are frequently reminded) is a fully divine and fully human institution (or better, community).

The caution however, is we should look at the Church as "Nestorian" -- i.e. two institutions, one divine and one human. As if when she does "A" she is divine and when she does "B" she is human. Every action of the Church contains her divinity AND her humanity. That is why I hate it when people use the term "institutional church" to mean the exclusively human bureaucracy of the church.

The same Catholic Church which once segregated blacks in the back pews also raised up prophetic witnesses against her own racism and society's racism.

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Kurt ]

The Charismatic renewal in the United Methodist Church was the early portion of the bridge that brought me to the Byzantine Catholic Church. While I can see the excesses and the problems in it I can also see the gift that God gives to the Church through it. The Charismatic renewal is a much better alternative to a reformation. Revival is what all Churches need. If the Church is true to God it never needs reformation.

If the renewal remains true to the Church it is of God and should at least be tolerated. If it prompts people to leave it is of the devil it should be counselled or excorcised.

Dan Lauffer

I would like to give my view on the charismatic movement.

I have some experience with a Pentecostal denomination. The charismatic features are what eventually drove me away.

IMHO, it seems that the charismatic over emphasises emotion. If you do not get a "good feeling" form worship or prayer then something is wrong. I believe that this can drive people away, make them think something is wrong.

Also, I know it is not taught by the movement, but I feel it is something that can and does occur because of human nature.

That is, the people in this movement believe that everyone should pray in tongues. That everyone should recieve the Baptism of the Spirit. This sort of creates two classes of people. That that have recieved this Baptism and pray in tongues, and those that don't.

It is human nature to think that if you do/have something that someone else doesn't that you are better than them. This is my main problem with this "movement".

I also believe, that Fr. Seraphim Rose, in his book Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future comes out against the chrismatic movement in the Orthodox Church. I am reading this book but haven't gotten to this chapter yet.

David

To add to Davids post, I can say from having been there that the Charismatic movement in the Western church is exactly as he says, powered by human emotions. In my period of involvement the thing that finally repelled me was not the faith of those involved. It was the I-am-better- than- you attitude of those whom I encountered. If you did'nt speak or interpret tongues you were not "part of the team". The movement became so exclusive that they were rebuked by the local Bishop. If you were'nt flag waving or holding hands, you were out. I found much deeper spirituality in the Eastern Church and its sense of awe and Mystery. I believe they have no place in the Eastern church in the form I encountered.

St Bathild pray for us.
Michael

There is a difference in the renewal today compared to even ten years ago. You are correct, there was an attitiude among many, but not the majority, of I am better than thou. That ia a totally INCORRECT attitude. The Holy Spirit calls us to a spirit of humility, love, and obedience, not pride or ego.

The difference I see as a servant of the Lord and his people, is a maturity of the human nature. Those who have stayed through the years, at least in my experience, are a humble people that seek to serve the Body of Christ. Those who come into the renewal now, come seeking a deeper relationship than they have been able to gain otherwise.

As Eastern Christians we are truly graced with the effects of the asetism(my spelling is terrible) of the Church Fathers, and the continuity in the Divine Liturgy in most of our churches. However, there are those who have even asked that the Gospel not be read in their church to save time(an Eastern Church). The same spirit of confusion can be our churches. Vatican II brought a lot of changes to the West, but it also meant changes for us. The pope told us to go back to our roots, but they went into uncharted waters. But the Holy Spirit had already set the path for this. As the pope was praying during this time for the Church to be stirred up by the Holy Spirit, as a whole it didn't listen. At the same time he was praying( I believe it was on New Years Eve), the Spirit "fell" on the Four Square Church on Azuza St.(which by the way is the spot where a Catholic Church stands now). The renewal wasn't brought into the church by any protestants, but by the pope seeking an increase in the Holy Spirit in the church and eventually a group of Catholic young people who believed what Scripture said. As they were praying on a weekend at Ducane University the Holy Spirt fell, manifested as It did on Pentacost. However, there were many instances when protestants did invade the prayer meetings and prosletize our people, but that was wised up to quickly.

Back to tongues, not everyone prays in tongues. It is true, it is an outward sign, of an inward manifestation, but not everyone moves in that particular charism, just like they don't all move in the others. But, because one doesn't pray in tongues doesn't mean he isn't moving in the Holy Spirit. In fact today, when seminars are held, the focus is on the Sacraments of the Church,leading into Pentecost, it is done with a greater sence of catholicity, so to speak.

Scripture says, "If you hear my voice today, harden not your heart." This is true for all of us. We know if something is said in father's homily, or a particular part of the liturgy strikes us one day, maybe someone says something a certain way, our heart, our very being knows that Jesus has spoke to us that day, in a particular way. Well with tongues, you know the Father's voice. You realize you have joined the hosts of heaven in praise to His majesty, only it is through the Holy Spirit that it is done. Always with the persons cooperation, because the individual is always in control. There are many who have said, "oh I can imitate tongues," a priest friend comes to mind, and he did, he figured that was what everyone else was doing at the meetings. When he went through a Life in the Spirit Seminar and they prayed over him, the Holy Spirit gently began to move his tongue. Sometimes it may just be a syllable, sometimes a whole language, it is between the person and the Spirit. We always have people begin by praying "Abba", "Abba Father" over and over, and soon you will hear the voice of a small child, as though he is out reaching his hands waiting to be picked up. It is that innocense of faith that allows the Holy Spirit to pray through you in such a way. Trusting in the Father and the Son that they will "not let your feet stumble or fall." I know this may sound somewhat emotional, but what I am trying to do is draw you a picture in words of what happens. Sitting on His lap, saying "here I am Lord, do with me as you will."

This is what the Desert Fathers did. They spent there whole life in the presence of God. Drawing close to Him. For many of us, we don't have that time, so by the power of His Spirit He does it for us.

Jesus said, "My peace I leave you, my peace I give you, not as the world can give, but only I can give." This peace is manifested through His Spirit. I have learned to live by my peace. I know when that peace in disturbed, it is an awareness that I need to come before our Lord in repentance, praise, and supplication, for I have moved away from His grace. His love and joy is so great that I do not want to do anything to offend Him, and I fail miserably many times a day. This peace has only grown in these years. It is a peace that I never knew before, a peace that I always want have and to share with others.

The point about emotionalism is well taken. Ususally the excitement that seems to occur unbridled is from immaturity. As one grows in this life you understand how to handle it. The joy comes not in the fact that there has been an outward expression, but that there is an inward joy. It doesn't mean that you don't get into raising your hands and shouting for joy, for even King David danced before God, playing the harp, and singing...are we to be any different?

To reference the haves and the have nots. We all have received the Seal of the Holy Spirit. We all have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, I guess the difference is some of us look at Acts a little closer and say, "go for it, I'll take it all, all that you will give me." But, I say to everyone, that if you are singing in the choir, teaching ECCD, serving at the alter, you are using the charismatic gifts. You are using the gifts and talents God has given you, just as the one who uses tongues to pray with. Each is given a different gift for the building up of the body of Christ. WE ARE ONE BODY!!!!!

In Christ,
Rose

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Rose ]

Sister Rose makes a very clear and real point: we each have been given gifts. It is our responsiblity to make sure that these gifts are used to the service of the Churchl

Sometimes, these gifts are 'obscure' and not easily integrated into the ongoing life of the community that is "Church". It is then that we need to do the 'gird up the loins' thing and keep on keepin' on.

We Byzantines have an incredibly "Byzantine" patrimony. Lots of texts, theologies, services, customs, etc. We should focus on THEM, and not allow ourselves be trans-duced into some other (more or less) valid expression of Christianity. The day we get "charismatic" Byzantines (or Orthodox) is the day I start praying elsewhere or at home. To be perfectly honest, this charismatic stuff scares me. If I don't understand what you're saying in the "Spirit", then I'm not part of 'your' community because I don't understand you. And, if I'm not in the inner circle, then I'm not in any of these circles. And it's not a true "ekklesia" or 'church' because there is NO openness to anyone who comes to the door. Maybe a cult?

Scary.

Blessings!

Just a bit of trivia:

I always found it very coincidental that the Catholic Charismatic movement started at my Alma Mater, Duquesne University. The school was founded by the Holy Ghost Fathers and the official title of the school is Duquesne University of the Holy Ghost. Telling that the Holy Spirit chose His name's sake to begin this movement.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Or perhaps Satan thought it was devilishly ironic to have this demonic deception begin in a place named after the Holy Ghost.

Hello all:

I'd just like to add my $0.0199 to this thread.

I consider myself a Charismatic Roman Catholic and yes, also in the Pentecostal sense of the word "Charismatic".

I've been in the movement long enough (about 12 years) to be able to say that "the movement" has everything you guys says it has.

I've been member, server and overseer of prayer groups where the Gifts of the Holy Spirit truely develop into Fruits of the Holy Spirit, where the fruits of holiness are longlasting and ever multiplying, where a physical healing is a sign of a thousand spiritual healings happening right then and there. To deny the actions of the Holy Spirit in those situations would be at the very least, stupid.

I've also seen groups full of mumbo-jumbo and show-off. People sadly and obviously faking the Gift of Tongues, or being "Slain in Spirit", things like that, just because they want to "fit in" the group.

I've also seen things that make me wonder if the spiritual "entity" involved is Godly at all. And believe me, you don't want to be there.

And then again, I've ALSO seen all of this in mostly anywhere else within and without the Church.

And what should we say? That it is God's fault, that He really shouldn't give any external or extraordinary sign of His working in our souls? Of course not, that's nonsense! God could've saved us all from the confort of His heavenly throne without having to bother Himself with the Incarnation or the Cross or the stinky hard-headed fishermen of Galilee.

But, you see, God doesn't think that way. So much did God love us that He came to us not only to save us, but because being WITH US in itself is something that God really, really, REALLY wants.

Last time I checked, He hasn't changed His mind.

So it really doesn't surprise me to have all of these little manifestations of God's closeness. Actually it would really surpriese me not to have them.

Nowhere in Scripture Paul says that the Gift of Tongues is useless. Read again. It just says that the Gift of Prophesy is more useful (for some thigs) than the Gift of Tongues. Concluding from that that the Gift of Tongues is useless would be like considering a Moleben useless just because the Divine Liturgy is better. You guys don't think that, do you?

Also, I would be very careful to call all of these manifestations "demonic". That was the very thing those guys were doing when Jesus talked about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If I recall correctly, His words were not exactly "nice" about that. Don't put the rope around your own neck.

Byzantines often complain about Latins not fully understanding Byzantine spirituality and devotion. If the Charismatic Renewal is not currently part of your spiritual life (for whatever reason), shouldn't we be entitled to the same sort of respectful silence you guys request from us?

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

Thank you for your great contribution to this thread, that being that erudition is always needed whenever spiritual gifts are said to be manifested and that this erudition requires the authority of the Church.

There are many "holy people" and "miracles" that are not really, but that only the Church can identify and separate wheat from chaff etc.

You obviously have the Gift of Erudition in abundance and you touch the lives of many with your experience and guidance.

Praise the Lord!

Alex

Memo,
You are right, I guess there could be good along with the bad, but where is the line drawen?

Also, you are correct in saying that Paul does not say that the Gift of Tongues is useless.

Please explain to me what the Gift of Tongues are. In the Pentecostal Denomination I belonged to, it was described as the praying in tongues that one did after being Baptized in the Spirit. After being, as you put it, "Slain in Spirit".

I do not find evidence in the Scriptures for the Baptism of the Spirit nor of anyone ever being "Slain in the Spirit". I also see no evidence of this private prayer language that is used when one prays in tongues.

The Gift of Tongues is not to be practised without the complementary Gift of Interpretation.

Paul also states that Tongues are not a sign for believers but for unbelievers. So why is it only evident at chrismatic meetings?

Both of these are spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14.

I ask because these are some of the things that confuse me within the Charismatic Movement and you, as a member of this Movement, I hope can help me out.

Thanks,
David