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He probably wouldn't disagree. He has, after all, said that if it came down to a conflict between the Tradition of the Eastern Churches and the rules of the Society of Jesus, he would have to follow the Tradition.

How much time/resources across the Eastern Side of the Catholic Church are spent carping about "latinizations"? Not time/resources spent actually reverting back to correct Eastern practices but time /resources spent simply whining about the current (perceived) condition of the Eastern half of the Church?

THAT is what is such a HUGE turn-off to so many! Fix it! If you're not in a position to fix it yourself, pray for those who are. But to continually whine about "latinizations" is ultimately a killer -- in more ways than one.

Was the parish in question an EC or O parish? If it was EC and you referred to yourself as "Orthodox", wouldn't that be frowned upon by both EC's and O's?

Also, why would you suggest that the label "Eastern Catholic" is in any way "funny?" Because you don't want to use the moniker? Because you want to be "Orthodox"?

Liturgically, the Melkites call themselves Orthodox Christians. So do the Ukrainians. Only the Ruthenians seem allergic to the dreaded O-word. Yet in no way can Pravoslavije Khristianam be translated as "Christians of the true faith", when the simpler rendering of "Orthodox Christians" is available.

We ALL want to be Orthodox. The Pope has instructed us in that regard. Get with the program.

Dear Franciscum,

The parish in question is EC.

We've been working on a proper title for ourselves ever since the Unia of Brest that would signify our union with Rome while, at the same time, underscore our Eastern Christian identity.

The term "Orthodox" fits that bill exactly.

For centuries, the term "Catholic" in Ukraine and Russia signified that one was "Polish." There were no ethnic monikers at that time.

That is why our forefathers when they joined the Union of Brest, didn't refer to themselves as "Catholics" in that sense.

The term "Catholic" has also had a very negative impact on our Church over the years as well.

It opened wide the flood-gates of Latinization which was always accompanied with Polonization - the two went hand in hand.

And it also served to create a second-class citizenship mentality in EC's. Whenever the Catholics (i.e. RC's or "Real Catholics" as many of our people thought) practiced a Latin devotion, then we had to adopt it to show we were just as "Catholic."

In my Slavonic Greek Catholic Book of Needs of 1893, in the back, there are rules laid out and approved by Rome at the time that forbade RC's from going to Communion in an EC Church - but EC's were encouraged to go to Communion in an RC ("Real Catholic") church . . .

Personally, I like the term "Orthodox Catholic" as an official name for our EC Churches.

"Eastern Catholic" is "funny" because it partializes the experience of being Catholic. Latins can call themselves "Catholics" and everyone knows that this means they are of the Latin Rite etc. In some ears, "Eastern Catholic" may sound like "Roman Catholic of the Byzantine or other Rite."

Do we want to be Orthodox? Franciscum, perhaps the question you should pose is, "When have we stopped being Orthodox?"

And to hearken to Stuart's eloquent insightfulness, when we think we've stopped being Orthodox, that is when we have been Latinized.

Alex

Yes. Unfortunately true.


I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

The Maronite Church has become unbelievably tainted with Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations, to such a degree that it is choking the very life out of us.


The traditions themselves are pure, but most of them no longer exist (see the above). So, tell me, please, which ones were, from the very beginning, so similar to the Latins?

Careful, Stuart. Just what exactly do you mean?
The Pope has instructed us to be "Eastern Orthodox in communion with Rome"? Deny divinely-revealed dogmas of the Catholic Church and still say "I'm with the Pope"?
Blessed John Paul II's Ad tuendam fidem [vatican.va] certainly blows that out of the water.
Just what program are you saying one should "get with"?

Just read the documents and decide for yourself.

Dear Amigo Griego,

Which Divinely revealed doctrines do we Orthodox Christians deny?

Alex

There you go again, being vague.
I have yet to read any document that even implies "OICWR".
If your position has Church support, why not cite it?

I think that the Church's call for unity trumps anything else. OK? Schism? What schism? I refuse to recognize it or be bound by it, because, to be honest, there is no legitimate reason for us to be separated.

Dear Royal Stuart,

I have a published doctoral dissertation by an RC priest on Lutheranism (i.e. "Reformation theology").

The conclusion that five-year piece of academic work reached was that . . . the differences between the RC and Lutheran churches do not justify their separation.

Surely, there can be no reason (other than more mundane issues) to justify the separation of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Alex

Dear Amigo Griego,

The document you cite by St John Paul II was written, I believe, to address the concerns the Church has with the many liberal Catholic theologs that, today, INFEST the RC church.

It does not relate to Orthodox Christian theology at all.

As for the "defined dogmas" of the RC Church, the problem is that the RC Church seems to have blurred the distinction between what is revealed dogma and what is Latin theological (and liturgical) expression.

And EC's sometimes (or even often) feel they have to adopt Latin theological and liturgical expressions to prove that they are also "Catholic."

The RC Church is in a big mess, not only liturgically, but primarly theologically these days. The number of your colleges that accept theologians who deny key dogmas and even moral principles is appalling.

The RC Church really does need the Orthodox Christian tradition in so very many ways today.

As St Thomas More said to William Roper about his orthodoxy in faith, "We must just pray that when your head has stopped turning, your face is back up to the front again."

Sorry, but that is how I feel and confession is good for the soul . . .

Alex

The document also applies to the Eastern Catholic Churches as evidenced by the fact that His Holiness believed it necessary to add the following to the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches:


Further reading: http://orthocath.files.wordpress.co...and-zoghby-proposals-dead-20080404-1.pdf