www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology charasmatic byzantines

I would certainly not want to disparage in any way the gifts that the Holy Spirit can give to people. And I'm sure that the gift of tongues and the gifts of prophecy (among others) are reality.

But perhaps because of the theology studies, and my penchant for science, I'm more of a rationalist than anything else. (Part of monastic/religious order training involves rooting out all 'desires', a code word for emotions.) Thus, a good theologian and a good monastic (including secular priests) does not give in to feelings of any sort. The idea behind this is to be liberated to "choose the good" (Thomas Aquinas) without having one's emotions seduce the intention to something. Like military chaplains who are serving at a battle scene, the emotion of fear would inhibit their doing the "good" of absolving and anointing. The 'mindset' should be: think and assess what God would want, and then DO it.

I had the opportunity to assist at a charismatic retreat-weekend for troubled teens. While the intense sessions broke a lot of the kids down, got them to realize where their problems lay, and provided them with the personal love and support they desperately needed, the 'charismatic' aspects of falling down in the Spirit (there were no Tongues) frightened me since I had no idea where it would lead and what effect it might have on the kids (or me, for that matter).

As a Byzantine of the Greek persuasion, I know for a fact that we too have our 'emotional' moments within the context of our church life. Our life from Palm Sunday to Paschal Matins is a roller-coaster of emotions. Is there anyone who has followed the Shroud on Great Friday who has not been moved to tears of anger, mourning, and fear? When the priest comes forth with the candle and proclaims "Receive the light...", is there no swelling in the chest, goosebumps and a sense of exhilaration? If not, then you should consult your priest -- there's something wrong.

Perhaps in the context of the current Roman Church and its liturgical life, there is a need for charismatic prayer. And the same appears to be appropriate for the a-liturgical Protestants. (I find it intriguing that when the "Reformers" dumped liturgical celebrations as "Popish", their communities went out and established secret societies like the Masons, who have a 'liturgical' paradigm and a hierarchy that parallels our own Byzantinity. Hmmm. An innate need for ritual? Think so.)

But, for us Byzantines, I can understand why some might think that the 'newly discovered' Gifts of the Spirit would be welcomed as both Scriptural and a potential for the building up of the church. However, I can only rely upon my experience at a charismatic gathering, as well as my Constantinopolitan church heritage, to believe that the charismatic movement doesn't quite fit the Byzantine paradigm. For some individual Byzantines, OK. But for us as a Church, I don't think so. Personally, it frightens me; and I suspect it would frighten a lot of my fellow parishoners. There is no place in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, nor in the Liturgy of our Father Basil the Long-winded, for this Spirit inspired prayer. And we don't do the 'non-liturgical' prayer meeting; every time we pray, we do it in the church, before the iconostasis, and according to the books.

And, most importantly, I don't think the Babas would approve. (And you KNOW what that means!)

Blessings!

Rich,
You must live in the Eparchy of Passiac. This is the only place that they use this phrase in the Divine Liturgy (I think).

I do not remember this usage when I visit Pittsburgh.

This, I guess, could be called a latinization, as at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer in the Novus Ordo Mass, more precisely the Memorial Acclamation, the priest says, "Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith".

David

Memo,

I took a few days to cool off before I responded to your last reply to me. You seemed to have hit a nerve with me on this topic now.


While the word "Trinity" may not be in the scripture it is alluded to in many places.

It is also in the Teachings of Holy Mother Church as well as can be found in the writings of the Church Fathers.

What really upset me with your response was that instead of attacking my argument you decided to attack me with the Sola Scriptura argument.

I agree that we must look to the Church for the interpretation of Scripture. So why don't you show the Teachings and writings of the Church Fathers that support the charismatic movement.

I see what you are saying about 1 Corinthians 14:23 but first you must show that the "speaking in tongues" that Paul is talking about here is the "praying in tongues" that go on in the charismatic movement, I do not think it is because in verse 24 Paul starts off with, "But if all prophesy".

I am sorry but I do not believe in two Baptisms.

As it says;

I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.

Ephesians 4
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.


David

David,
There are Scriptural references to the Trinity.
Every verse in the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed has its basis in Holy Scripture.
In particular, consider the following:
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
Hope this helps.
May you have a most blessed Great Fast.
Deacon El

Deacon El,
I know this, that is where I got Ephesians 4 from in my reply.

I never denied this, as I said;



In Christ,
David

Our mission church has celebrated Divine Liturgy every Sunday in the facilities of the Mother of God Community School for over 5 years. The MOG community/school was founded by a lay Roman Catholic charasmatic group over 20 years ago (they now fall fully under the auspices of the D.C. RC Archdiocese).

For this coming Sunday of Orthodoxy, we posted an invitation to the Mother of God community to join us for Divine Liturgy and the Blessing of Icons (The group seems to have a penchant for icons, but not really sure if many of them understand the full theology behind their use by the EC/EO. They do have a few folks that have taken iconography classes).

We don't know how many MOG folks will take us up on our invitation. Note that the D.C. Archdiocese has said that the community members must belong to establised "regular" parishes. They are permitted to have a community "Sunday mass" only once a month, but they can celebrate weekday mass in their chapel, where they do reserve the Eucharist.

We have offered invitations in the past... once to an Akathist to the Mother of God (few if any takers) and to Solemn Vespers for Holy and Great Friday (20 or so folks).

Unfortunately, the First Sunday of the Great Fast falls on President's Day weekend this year. Many of our own government worker folks have a three-day weekend and are headed to the "old country" to visit relatives. So... if you're in the Montgomery County, Maryland area this Sunday, please join us in prayer and in the singing. Yes, there will be speaking in tounges... some Old Church Slavonic here and there.

I'll report back as to how things went.

P.S. Because we've had Divine Liturgy at this facility for a number of years, there is a rumor floating around the Pittsburgh area that we are Byzantine Charasmatic Catholic group... please let folks know this is not the case.

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: moncobyz ]

Hello David:


Ok, now that we both agree that using a single verse from Sripture to decide an issue is not thr proper Catholic procedure, we can expand our horizon and see the issue at hand from a non Sola-Scriptura position.

I'm sorry if I upset you.


Who are the Church Fathers? If you want quotes from ancient documents of people speaking in tongues, well, you have the NT.

"The Fathers" don't need to have an answer for everything, that is why the Church STILL has a teaching authority.

If you want a legitimate Church authority supporting the charismatic movement, why don't we go to current authorities:

Decree of Recognition of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services:

http://www.iccrs.org/statutes.htm

Words from Popes regarding the Catholic Charismatic Renewal:

http://www.iccrs.org/popes.htm



OK, you're entitled to your opinions. Now, can we find a legitimate Church authority with universal jurisdiction that supports this?

Now, I am not saying that all the giberish you listen to in numerous charismatic prayer meetings comes from the Holy Spirit. That would be dangerously naive.

But if you're saying that NONE of it can come from the Holy Spirit, aren't you being prejudicious even against NT discerment guidelines (knowing by the fruits, is the Spirit conducting to make and proclaim Jesus Lord, etc.)?


I don't either. The Charismatic Renewal clearly states that the phenomenon called "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" is neither another Baptism nor another Sacrament, but rather, an experience, vivification and renewal of the one Baptism you received when you were initiaited to the Christian religion.

Hey, I don't like the term either. I like "Second Conversion" much better (the first one, being your Baptism, of course).

Shalom,
Memo.

Сретение Господне/Meeting of the Lord (Julian calendar) 2002

Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts.

Is the Church small-c charismatic? Does the Holy Spirit work with individuals? Да!

С праздником!

http://oldworldrus.com

Hi:


You bet! The Catholic Church firmly teaches that the institutional Church and the charismatic Church are one and the same.

The hierarchical gifts are not opposed to the charismatic gifts but rather, as both come from the same Spirit, both are ordained for the good of the Church as a whole and for the good of every individual Chrisitian.

Shalom,
Memo.

2Tm:2:
24 But the servant of the Lord must not wrangle: but be mild toward all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 With modesty admonishing them that resist the truth: if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth;
26 And they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil by whom they are held captive at his will.
(DRV)

Memo,

I am probably beating a dead horse here, but....

You agree that we must look to the Church for the proper interpretation of the scripture and for the Traditions and Teachings of the Church.

I disagree with your statement of, '"The Fathers" don't need to have an answer for everything'.

I read the links you provide and they really do not speak to the issues I have.

You seem to be doing the same thing as my Pentecostal friends did, instead of showing me something besides the vague verses in the Bible that support the "Praying in tongues", you say either you believe or you don't.

I just can't accept this. If Paul was talking about the "Praying in Tongues" when he said "Speaking in Tongues" then why is there no record of this occurring in the past after the account in Acts? Paul, in First Corinthians, is actually minimizing the use of tongues in the Church because the speaking of tongues had become a source of disorder in the Church of Corinth.

Here is something from Fr Seraphim Rose's Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, from Chapter VII The "Charismatic Revival" section 3. "Speaking in Tongues";

Here already one may note an overemphasis that is certainly not present in the New Testament, where speaking in tongues has a decidedly minor significance, serving as a sign of the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) and on two other occasions (Acts 10 and 19). After the first or perhaps the second century there is no record of it in any Orthodox source, and it is not recorded as occurring even among the great Father of the Egyptian desert, who were so filled with the Spirit of God that they performed numerous astonishing miracles, including raising the dead.

He goes on to quote from Blessed Augustine (Homilies on John, VI:10): "In the earliest times the Holy Spirit fell upon them that believed, and they spake with tongues which they had not learned, as the Spirit gave them utterance. These were signs adapted to the time. For it was fitting that there be this sign of the Holy Spirit in all tongues to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That was done for a sign, and it passed away."

And no where I look do I find the "praying in tongues" as being the same as the Speaking in Tongues mentioned in the Scriptures and here is a Father of the Church that actually says that Speaking in Tongues as a sign has passed away.


In Christ,
David

Slava Isusu Chrystu!

It's a great joy for me to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit to discover that there are many ways God has revealed Himself in different tradition.

Yesterday, a miracle happened. I was one of the many St. Pauls religious store, when I noticed that one of the customer is wearing a three bar cross. So I approached him immediately and introduced my self and inquired from him the church to which they go. He is a monk – deacon. As I discover it that the annunciation orthodox church is about 30 min. from my home, so near!!!

I trying to get in touch with the priest so I could join them this Sunday for divine liturgy.

God is so good. I have been searching for any eastern tradition churches in the Philippines for about a year now but unfortunately I could not find one. Until that miraculous event.

But still I will preserve my allegiance to our His Holiness John Paul II the apostle of unity. Being born a Catholic in the roman rite I have this love to the Pope of Rome and instill in me of his true apostolic succession of the chair of St. Peter.

Glory to Him for ever!

Eumir…..

I'm going to close this thread out. Not that the topic isn't worthy of discussion, but that there have been too many brickbats tossed around in this particular thread.

Edward, deacon, sinner & moderator