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This is all a lot of pointless talking anyway. Long before there is any formal union of Catholic and Orthodox, the faithful in the major part of this earth will be happy to find a bishop who is alive and Christian at all, let alone Catholic, let alone Orthodox, let alone ethnic enough for tastes.

I'm not sure the Bolsheviks ruined Orthodoxy in America -

The Orthodox did quite a lot of destruction all on their own!

It is true that the Russian Orthodox were in complete Chaos - and to this day suffer from the early part of this century and the Bolshevik persecution - then the manipulation of clergy by Germans, Communists, Stalinists, KGB, the Cold War and many other issues.

It's still pretty much a mess today.

There is an excellent movie from Russia with english subtitles called POP. It is a very good and very real look at how Orthodoxy was used by everyone to manipulate each other in Russia.

Unfortunately, Bishop Sotor did not return to Europe. He died in 1916 and is buried in the Cathedral in Philadelphia. He worked to be Bishop for all the nationalities, knowing the history of Fr. Toth and others. Had he lived the Greek Catholic Church structure might have been different.

The fault lines are still with us. As the cantor's wife at Holy Trinity UGCC in Silver Spring told me. "We're all Ukrainian, they (at Holy Family in DC) are only half Ukrainian."

Some Ukrainians aren't good enough for the others. Bishop Sotor wasn't good enough for anyone. Maybe he was just right.

It is indeed sad that there is ( or was) dissonance between the Ukranians and the Ruthenians. After having attended liturgies in both forms I found very littledifference between the two and the Church Slavonik was used (at that time) between the two. It was only recently that I was even aware of the existence in American of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church (we have none in Pittsburgh) We do have the Maronite Church at Our Lady of Victory in Pittsburgh. I feel there is something to be said for any of the rites in any of the Eastern Churches. I even attended a Festival of Orthodxy at the Civie Arena in Pittsburgh which was a vespers service, all the lights were dimmed and the dome was opened and the service began with candlelight. It was extraordinary and I will never forget it.

I'm quite sure Justinian would have had a retractable dome in Hagia Sophia, if only it had been invented at the time.

Thank you for correcting the end of my story. You may be right regarding how history might have been different. Bishop Sotor consecrated St. Michael's in Binghamton in 1916 as recounted in the Binghamton Press. A parade greeted him at the rail station on his arrival from Philadelphia. A horse drawn carriage transported him the mile or so to the Church and the parish band - yes band -provided music for the hundreds of faithful who accompanied him.

My dad believed that Bishop Ortynsky got a raw deal with the way he was treated treated by the oldest activists on both sides. Of course that opinion would have been based on what he learned from his parents generation as he was born in 1917!

Interestingly, the Lemko faction left St Michaels in 1916 to found Dormition Russian Orthodox church and the Galicians left in 1922 to found St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the parish itself became Orthodox in 1938 while the Greek Catholic loyalists left to establish Holy Spirit Byzantine Church.

What a complicated stew indeed.

There is a difference: the Ukrainian Liturgy is so much more melodic and pleasant to the ear.

Dear Pavloosh,

What a wonderful gentleman you are!

Alex

This is true, just as long as the Divine Liturgy is traditional, meaning sung and chanted, as opposed to mostly recited like some UGCC parishes are doing.

I saw an excerpt from this movie, but have been unable to find the whole thing. Do you have a source for the movie, either streaming or on DVD?

Your point?

Pavloosh,

You really need to take that chip off your shoulder - it's all too often visible, it's most unbecoming, and. apparently, it negatively affects your reading comprehension.

Whose point?

If you are referring to Alex,


he was gratefully acknowledging your words about the melodic beauty of the Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian.

If you are referring to Bob,


he was agreeing with you but lamenting the fact that, in his experience, the Divine Liturgy in UGCC parishes is frequently recited rather than sung and chanted.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Irish Melkite:
That socalled chip on my shoulder you say I have is not negativity, but honesty. I've stated my opinion on a number of issues that may not be accepted by all, but that's life.
I resent your judging me as a person, so buzz off please.
Pavloosh

Brothers,
In Europe the tendency in my experience is that the Ukrainian (Gallican) chants are sung in 2-3 voices mostly and the Ruthenian ones in 1 (prostopinije). So in a way the Gallican one can be more appealing if performed skillfully (the chords of the homophony bathe our minds and souls). However, just comparing the main melodies the Ruthenian chants are actually more melodious, more "meandering" since they don't necessarily have to facilitate easy harmonization for the congregation. If performed by cantors with a good voice they can sound also very appealing. And if there are some in the congregation who can harmonize to it then, please forgive me for writing this, it might even surpass the pleasantness of the Gallican one .

I read somewhere perhaps "Russian Orthodox Chanting"
or one of the myriad books I own on Slavic Divine Liturgy - stated that harmonization was introduced to the Russians (and possible all the Rus) as influence from the WEST. Of course they took it and ran with it --- some beautiful music from Ruthenian, Russian, and Ukrainian just to name a few. Gallican chant may have been the conduit.

The spirit of Worship in Awe and Wonder is what we are after - not who can sing the best or who sounds the best - although sound does help create a spiritual atmosphere - sometimes even an out of tune congregation and choir who cannot sing to save themselves but come together out of love of God and one another is BEAUTIFUL MUSIC INDEED.

We need to count our blessings when there are more than only 2 or 3 people in our congregations unless that is all we have - then we need to thank God for the 2 or 3!