www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Do the Orthodox have the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance?

I hope I have not asked a ridiculous question.

One of my great dismays regarding protestantism has been that they do not believe that any adult who has not asked Jesus Christ to come into their life/heart and be their Lord and savior can enter the Kindgom of God. The ultimate anti-intellectual idea is that those who live a good life to the best of their conscience can not still be saved through Jesus Christ even if they have not heard of His transcending existence.

That protestants believe that all other non-christian people (except for children) on earth are going to hell, in this particular instance fits them into a league beyond Islamic heresy. For muslims do believe that eventually non believers through a period of purgatory-like tempering will, if they are good and noble, have eternal life in heaven. What are the roots of the doctrine of invincible ignorance? I would like confirmation that my orthodox brethren share this belief especially with protestant converts. I assume that they/you do. Also is invincible ignorance considered apophatic or cataphatic theology?

I dont know if this book might help answer your question.


http://www.sdnewsnotes.com/ed/articles/1997/1197an.htm

ICXC
NIKA

Cristoir,

As for the belief that all religious outsiders go to hell, I think this is a belief of certain fanatics or fanatical sects or fanatical movements. I have not heard of this belief being held among people who calmed down long enough to read and reflect on Matthew 25, regardless if they are Orthodox, Catholics or Protestants. And if they do anyway, even after reading the truth of God's justice and compassion, they are in a worse position than the Pharisees.

As for the term "invincible ignorance," I'm not sure what you mean. Genuine ignorance is excusable. However, if a person has learned the truth about living --that there is a God, that there is a right and wrong, etc.-- and if that person goes on living as as if he or she was still ignorant: that is not ignorance. That is pride . . . which is also a sin.

-- John

There is no doctrine of invincible ignorance in Orthodoxy I'm aware of. God's grace and mercy certainly are not limited to those in the visible church however. In what way these things act outside of the church though is undefined.

That article seems to laud and encourage the conversion of Orthodox Christians to Catholicism. That seems to be something a number of people here desire.

Andrew

Glory to Jesus Christ!

A couple of things:

First, Protestantism is pretty wide and diverse, and not all Protestants believe this. You're thinking of the the evangelical fundamentalists (the same folks who think that Jesus turned water into grape juice), and they don't represent the majority of Protestants. There are also the ultra-traditionalist Roman Catholics who take "no salvation outside the Church" literally, and I'm sure there are few Orthodox who think the same way.

Second, from what I understand, the Orthodox teach that salvation is possible to non-Orthodox. In fact, I'm reading a book right now called Gifts of the Desert: The forgotten path of Christian spirituality by Kyriacos Markides. I just happened to finish the chapter where the author is interviewing British Greek Orthodox convert, professor,and bishop Kallistos Ware, and Bishop Kallistos just discussed this very issue. He did a wonderful job of explaining it, and I'll try to summarize:

Basically, the light of Christ shines in the heart of every human being due to natural law-- whether they recognize it or not. It is possible therefore to be an "anonymous Christian"-- that is, to worship Christ without fully recognizing Him. I would say that Mahatma Gandhi was a perfect example of this. The light of Christ shone within him, even though he was not a Christian. If such a person is unable to recognize Christ as God, but seeks to follow God to the best of their knowledge and ability, then they can be saved.

This doesn't mean that there are other paths to salvation other than Jesus... anyone who is saved is saved through Him and no one else. This also doesn't apply to those who *know* Christ is the truth and still reject Him. It doesn't mean that all religions are equally valid.

I believe that these "anonymous Christian" Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. will, upon meeting Christ, recognize Him-- recognize that He is the One they had been inadvertently worshiping. Whereas many professed Christians will be in for a nasty surprise, because they'll find that they didn't know Him at all.

Sorry this was such a long answer, but I hope it answered your question. :-)

Edited by me for being stupid.

I always thought the answer to people who refused to allow the un-Baptised in is:

Ro 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Yes Andrew you are right my choice of a link was not helpful at all in hind sight. Certainly did not answer the question that was asked. It does smack of no salvation outside the Church and you are right from both a Orthodox and Catholic perspective.

ICXC
NIKA

http://www.sdnewsnotes.com/ed/articles/1997/1197an.htm

"Scott Butler, co-author of Jesus, Peter, and the Keys, says they could be, and are. "They are irritated at this work, and I love it," he says. "We had about seven or eight Protestants who were going to write a critique of the book -- we've not seen one thing. I don't think they know how to refute it."

My, what a humble attitude!

To the best of my fallible knowledge, there is not really a "doctrine" of invincible ignorance in the Catholic Church. The expression "invincible ignorance" is one possible means among many that theologians sometimes propose as a means by which one might understand the salvation of people who are not visibly part of the Catholic Church.

Incognitus

Excellent post !!!

And, by the way, welcome to the Forum !

-- John

MizByz,
True humility does not deny the truth!
Stephanos I

Dear John,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Thank you for the welcome and for the compliment. I can't take any credit though, since I'm just summarizing what a brilliant and God-loving bishop says about the teachings of Orthodoxy (and Catholicism too).

One of the things I love about the Eastern Church is its respect for the mysteries of God, and its nonjudgemental attitude. No one can presume to judge the salvation of others, we must leave judgement to God.

Dear Stephanos,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Yeah, but bragging about how brilliant one's work is isn't very humble, regardless of whether or not it's true, imo.

Here is a very, very Beautiful quote from Bishop Kallistos Ware's book, "The Orthodox Church."

All of the following is From Page 108 in my copy

"As Fr Alexander Elchaninov observes:
'Ignorance and sin are characteristic of isolated individuals. Only in the unity of the Church do we find these defects overcome. Man finds his true self in the Church alone; not in the helplessness of spiritual isolation but in the strength of his communion with his brothers and his savior.'

It is of course true that there are many who with their concious brain reject Christ and his Church, or who have never heard of him; and yet, unknown to themselves, these people are true servants of the one Lord in their deep heart and in the implicit direction of their whole life. God is able to save those who in this life never belonged to his Church. But, looking at the matter from "our" (our is in italics) side, this does not entitle any of us to say, "The Church is unnecessary for me". There is in Christianity no such thing as a spiritual elite exempt from the obligations of normal church membership. The solitary in the desert is as much a churchman as the artisan in the city. The ascetic and mystical path, while it is from one point of view "the flight of the alone to the Alone", is yet the same time essentially social and communal. The Christian is the one who has brothers and sisters. He belongs to a family-the family of the Church."