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Thanks for sharing this citation. I remember coming across an article about the prominence of Augustine's De Trinitate in the Chapters on Love.

I agree that this claim is centrally important to Todd's argument. It is also a very influential and widely circulated characterization of the basic difference in approach between Eastern and Western Trinitarian theologies. There are, however, some reasons to doubt it. Here is an article that challenges that basic picture and offers a sort of genealogy of that presentation in modern scholarship.

http://www.pdcnet.org/scholarpdf/sh...026_0002_0051_0080.pdf&file_type=pdf

One problem in the ecumenical dialogue is that Augustine and Aquinas tend to be negatively interpreted by some Orthodox circles in such a way so as to blurr what they actually were about (so much so that Augustine is often referred to as "Blessed" by the Orthodox as if he isn't worthy to be a "full Saint" - although not by all as the Greeks have called him "St Augustine the Great").

Alex

I agree: very good indeed! I actually guessed that you would not have a problem with that Palamas quote so my "hm" was more of an expression of my lack of understanding as to why then you do have problems with Western expressions of this kind.

The Orthodox do not operate in the same way as the Roman Catholics by giving the title of "blessed" as a precursor to sainthood. The term "blessed" for Augustine in the Holy Orthodox Church is synonymous with the term "saint."

There have been various factions within Holy Orthodoxy who have down played his role as a Church Father....but I believe it is the exception.

Dear Lyachovitz,

I don't - Orthodox do.

Alex

Dear Recluse,

Yes, you are more than correct. "Blessed" is not a precursor to "Saint" in Orthodoxy.

The term "Blessed" could possibly mean a saint whose holiness was led in secret and others attested to it after his repose.

It could also mean what the RC Church means by "Venerable" - a holy person who might be glorified a saint one day, but who is venerated privately by faithful and for whom requiem services are served on the day of his repose annually.

It could also refer to a saint who has not been given the Church's "full stamp of approval" and besides Bl. Augustine, there is also Blessed Jerome and Blessed Theodoret of Cyrrhus.

Alex

I actually preferred reading Kristin Hennessy's article "An Answer to de Regnon's Accusers: Why We Should Not Speak of 'His' Paradigm," where she talked about how modern scholarship, including that done by Michel Rene Barnes, has been sloppy because it did not go back to de Regnon's own writings. For as she so succinctly put it: "Recent scholars, following Barnes's account of 'de Regnon's paradigm,' continue the cycle of neglect – citing Barnes citing theologians who do not cite de Regnon – still not citing de Regnon."

Be that as it may, I have not approached the Triadological issues under review in this thread by endorsing the improperly named "de Regnon" paradigm, which posits the idea that the Greek Fathers began reflection upon God with the multiplicity of persons, while the Latins began with the divine essence; instead, I have focused upon the Monarchy of God the Father and the incompatibility of the filioque with that doctrine.

Good for you!

RC theology today affirms it too asserts the Father's Monarchy.

We should review what the latest theological commissions have said about this . . .

Alex

The last thing the Roman Church issued on this topic is often referred to as "The Clarification on the Filioque" (n.b., its official title is "The Greek and Latin Traditions Regarding the Procession of the Holy Spirit"), and that text is available for free at EWTN in their document library.

I gave a partial critique of the "Clarifcation" in a paper I wrote while working on my MA in Theology.

Here are links to both items:

The Greek and Latin Traditions Regarding the Procession of the Holy Spirit [ewtn.com]
Published by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity

The Filioque Controversy [sites.google.com]
Posted on my Google Sites website

The Florentine decree on the filioque is problematic, because it asserts that the Father and the Son - in some way - act as one principle in the procession of origin of the Holy Spirit, and that notion cannot be reconciled with the Eastern understanding of the monarchy of God the Father.

Fr. David Coffey, a Roman Catholic priest, has criticized the Vatican's so-called "Clarification on the Filioque" in an article published some years ago in the International Journal of Systematic Theology. I have that article stored on my Skydrive and anyone interested in reading it can send me a private message and I will send him a link.

Dear Todd,

Could I have the link to that?

I don't see unity coming about between East and West any time soon - largely because there is no real "unity" between what RC theologians engaged in ecumenical debate with the Orthodox have to say and the various "clarifications" by the Vatican.

The Vatican will not make a single move in this respect and perhaps this is largely because of its attitude of being the "true Church" and it would be unseemly for the "true Church" to compromise the "true Faith" etc.

So I don't know how the Vatican envisions this "reunification" nor do I think it has thought it through.

Certainly, it won't countenance any changes to the way it does ecclesial business.

So if the best the Vatican can do is a veiled "Orthodox Ordinariate" - then I can tell it that the Orthodox won't go for that . . .

But the Vatican doesn't listen to EC's, does it?

Are you OK, sir?

Alex

Alex,

Pope Francis has repeatedly declared his commitment to cleanse the Vatican of "ecclesiastical careerism," which has long been a source of bureaucratic logjams and "business as usual" at the Vatican. True, it remains to be seen how all this will play, but I'm not giving up yet.

(Also, let us not forget that the model for ecumenism laid out by Vatican II is not based on compromise but on discernment. This means that we shouldn't be surprised if any real change is slow in coming ...)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

With God, all things are possible!

And if the Catholic and Orthodox Churches want to reunite, I won't block the effort!

Alex