1 members (San Nicolas),
375
guests, and
101
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,514
Posts417,578
Members6,167
|
Most Online4,112 Mar 25th, 2025
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94 |
I always found it interesting how the Byzantine liturgy presents God as both male and female.
In the Slavic tongues, "Holy Trinity" is actually feminine (Presvyata Troytsia).
Alex you can not apply linguistic differences to the meaning of the word and derive gender from it. In Ukrainian there is one of the synonyms of the word "road" which is female gender and in Russian the very same word ( letter to letter) is masculine. The word dog in Russian is a feminine noun, in Ukrainina - it is masculine noun - with the very exact literal spelling.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94 |
No, this statement is incorrect. We were created body and soul, and gender is a permanent part of our identity as human beings. Jesus is still the Son of God: fully God, fully a man, and the the Theotokos is still a woman, even in their glorified state. This is true of all the saints in heaven as well. It is correct and it is confirmed by Jesus Christ Himself - Matthew 22:30: At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.Mark 12:25: When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.like angels in heaven means - NO GENDER.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209 |
In the Slavic tongues, "Holy Trinity" is actually feminine (Presvyata Troytsia). Trinity is feminine in Latin too.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 668 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 668 Likes: 1 |
I always found it interesting how the Byzantine liturgy presents God as both male and female.
In the Slavic tongues, "Holy Trinity" is actually feminine (Presvyata Troytsia).
Alex That had never occurred to me before, even though I speak Bulgarian. How interesting. Thanks for pointing it out. Of course, in Slavic languages (as well as in many other languages) all nouns have "grammatical" gender, even if it seems to bear no relation to the nature of the object itself. So that, in Bulgarian, for exmple, "book" (kniga) is feminine gender, while "newspaper" (vestnik) is masculine, and "magazine" (spisanie) is neuter. I don't want to read things in that are not intended, yet I would think that for a word as theologically important as "Trinity", there would be some significance to the gender of the word. Now I'm finding it interesting that in my theology studies thus far, I've never come across anything that addressed this observation of Alex's. So now I'm curious about the etymology of the word "Trinity" in the Slavic languages. Anyone? Also, what about in Greek? Is it feminine in Greek, too? Also, as someone who speaks Bulgarian, I had never paid any attention to this before, nor given it any significance. Can any native speakers of Slavic languages comment on how it sounds to them?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94 |
I always found it interesting how the Byzantine liturgy presents God as both male and female.
In the Slavic tongues, "Holy Trinity" is actually feminine (Presvyata Troytsia).
Alex That had never occurred to me before, even though I speak Bulgarian. How interesting. Thanks for pointing it out. Of course, in Slavic languages (as well as in many other languages) all nouns have "grammatical" gender, even if it seems to bear no relation to the nature of the object itself. So that, in Bulgarian, for exmple, "book" (kniga) is feminine gender, while "newspaper" (vestnik) is masculine, and "magazine" (spisanie) is neuter. I don't want to read things in that are not intended, yet I would think that for a word as theologically important as "Trinity", there would be some significance to the gender of the word. Now I'm finding it interesting that in my theology studies thus far, I've never come across anything that addressed this observation of Alex's. So now I'm curious about the etymology of the word "Trinity" in the Slavic languages. Anyone? Also, what about in Greek? Is it feminine in Greek, too? Also, as someone who speaks Bulgarian, I had never paid any attention to this before, nor given it any significance. Can any native speakers of Slavic languages comment on how it sounds to them? It does not have any meaning people are implying at all. Nouns have gender endings in Slavic languages but that does not mean anything in particular.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209 |
Also, what about in Greek? Is it feminine in Greek, too? Trinity is feminine in Greek too. In both Latin and Greek, the word is more commonplace than the English 'Trinity.' It is the ordinary word for a 'trio' or 'threesome.'
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 325
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 325 |
No, this statement is incorrect. We were created body and soul, and gender is a permanent part of our identity as human beings. Jesus is still the Son of God: fully God, fully a man, and the the Theotokos is still a woman, even in their glorified state. This is true of all the saints in heaven as well. It is correct and it is confirmed by Jesus Christ Himself - Matthew 22:30: At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.Mark 12:25: When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.like angels in heaven means - NO GENDER. Yes, we will be more like the angels as we accompany them in worshiping the Holy Trinity for all eternity, but unlike angels we were created with a body and a soul ("male and female He created them"...). And yes, Jesus did say that at the Resurrection, we will not be given in marriage. That doesn't mean we will cease to be either male or female. Are you saying that Jesus Christ is no longer male? Are you saying that that the Holy Virgin, Our Lady, is no longer female? Both are in heaven bodily and have appeared physically on earth. They are the first fruits of what we all hope to inherit in the life to come. And in their glorified state they are very much man and woman. The idea of living eternally as pure spirit or the afterlife as something separate from the body comes from Greek philosophy. Btw, sorry if my initial post came across as rude ("No, this is incorrect") Don't know why I worded it that way. 
Last edited by desertman; 08/26/13 04:18 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209 |
It does not have any meaning people are implying at all. Nouns have gender endings in Slavic languages but that does not mean anything in particular. I agree that we shouldn't apply much particular meaning to the gender of words.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 668 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 668 Likes: 1 |
That has always been my understanding, too, and how it always felt to me when I was living in Bulgaria. I never really noticed gender of nouns, other than for grammatical purposes, and never attached any meaning to it.
But Alex's post made me curious, and I think it would be interesting to know what a native speaker would say. Also, if there's anything about the etymology of the word that would be interesting.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
The particular meaning is that God is as much feminine as He is masculine.
It is human language that fails here.
Alex
Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 08/27/13 06:39 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Actually, it means "no sex" or sexual relations i.e. purity. Nothing whatever to do with gender, Voxy.
It is no virtue to be pure when one can't or doesn't want to. It is a great virtue to be pure when one can and wants to.
Although in heaven, we won't want to . . .
Alex
Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 08/27/13 06:52 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
No, Voxy is clearly wrong here.
Our gender will always be a part of us, now and in eternity.
Alex
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Except that when you're a male . . . then we use the male gender in the language and when one is female . . .
Alex
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Well, I'm a native speaker - which tribal language would you like me to use? It is also interesting that, colloquially, we say "Bozhia dobra" or "God is good" where God is of the feminine gender. To "feminize" God in this way is to emphasize God's merciful compassion. Alex
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 94 |
Are you saying that Jesus Christ is no longer male? Are you saying that that the Holy Virgin, Our Lady, is no longer female? Both are in heaven bodily and have appeared physically on earth. They are the first fruits of what we all hope to inherit in the life to come. And in their glorified state they are very much man and woman. The idea of living eternally as pure spirit or the afterlife as something separate from the body comes from Greek philosophy. Btw, sorry if my initial post came across as rude ("No, this is incorrect") Don't know why I worded it that way.  Jesus Christ is GOD and as such is neither male nor female. He is APPEARING to US as He was on Earth - but that is for our human perception, not because He still is the same way as He was on Earth while being incarnated. Same is pertinent for Our Lady. This is a very interesting subject and I have researched it widely - there is NO CONSENSUS and the Catechism clearly states that upon resurrection we will have DIFFERENT bodies - without gender ( it says spiritual bodies). Since Christ Himself states that we will be like angels - I do not have any reason not to believe Him. And the Catechism of the CC: 999 How? Christ is raised with his own body: "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself";551 but he did not return to an earthly life. So, in him, "all of them will rise again with their own bodies which they now bear," but Christ " will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body," into a "spiritual body":
|
|
|
|
|