www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Do the Orthodox have the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance?

Incogneat3, that was a very beautiful quote.

I remember something that someone at an Orthodox forum said when this topic came up: "I know where the Church is, but I do not know where it is not."

-- John

Thank you all for answering another of my questions. If I had read more of the early Church abbas I would probably have not asked about "invincible ignorance" for I would have realized the basic ideas behind it have always been at the heart of our true Church. Christs love shining forth..

When we say we must leave the judgment to God on salvation, I assume this includes judging our own state as well?

This is one thing I constantly struggle with, a temptation to despair of God's mercy because of my sin(s). Surely there is a fine line between working out our salvation in fear and trembling (as St. Paul said) and going crazy trying to earn God's favor (scrupulousness) and be absolutely sure we have "made it". (which is really, on the face of it, ridiculous. NO ONE can "make it" in the barest sense of God's justice -- it must be all of grace. Would that I better learn what I have just said).

Brother Ed

Yes. You're not the only one who has to struggle with doubts about God's mercy or presumptions on it either. But, the main example I have of Christ's mercy is St. Dismas (the repentant thief on the cross). He admitted His sin, he asked for Christ's mercy ("Remember me, Jesus, when You come into Your kingdom), and Christ assured Him: "Today you will be with me in paradise."

-- John

Hi Brother Ed, glory to Jesus Christ! I apologize that I didn't see this sooner, or I would have responded much more promptly.

We should NEVER despair of God's mercy... personally, I feel that aside from the Incarnation, passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus, the greatest proof of God's infinite mercy is the fact that He hasn't wiped humanity off the face of the planet.

There's nothing we can do to make God love us any more, and there's nothing we can do to make Him love us less. Mother Theresa and Hitler are loved equally by God... it's their response to His love that differentiates them. In other words, it's our love-- never God's-- that is absent.

St. Therese of Lisieux is one of my favorite Saints, for this reason... she "got it." She understood that the key to being a saint doesn't lie in great things, but in great love. God literally wants us to just be ourselves-- to be the people He created us to be. Sin distorts our true nature, making us less human and therefore less like God.

We don't have to work to earn God's favor... but we do have to work to learn to love God and conquer the evil influences that keep us from living in His love. Like St. Therese, we must learn to see ourselves as helpless, broken children who need our loving Father. In crying to Him constantly, "Lord have mercy!" we realize our dependence on Him, and learn to rely on Him to give us what we need.

God bless,

Karen

That's awfully good advice....just be who we really are.

It is appropriate to something I am going through at this time. I spent last weekend at an Orthodox monastery. It was different and interesting, but as I pondered over all my feelings regarding that weekend, I realized that the attraction I feel at this time to the monastic life is not the Lord's call (which might come later or not at all) but my desire to "do something" to curry God's mercy and favor. And as I pondered this, I realized deep within that He wants me to learn to His love and to share that love right here, right now in the ordinary world I live in.

That was a very freeing realization and it has made for a wonderful day for me to realize this.

Brother Ed

Dear Brother Ed,

I'm so glad that my ramblings helped you.

Maybe you have a genuine calling to the monastic life, and now just isn't the right time... maybe God wants you to learn to be at peace with yourself in the world first. Perhaps only then will you be able to be a good monk.

Personally, I'm trying to learn how to pray... which is really a lifelong process. We can't possibly be able to commune with the living God or love Him if we don't do that.

Bear in mind that the Lord encourages; despair, sadness, and discouragement are of the evil one, and we should never give into them. God wants us to be joyful and unafraid-- and these are characteristics that the saints all share.

God bless,

Karen