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Plus, with a background like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_R._Cannon

I don't think even his compatriots in the MarthomaSyrian-fullAnglicanCommunion will tolerate that background!

Well yes, although even among the Anglo-Papalists it turned out to be significantly fewer than anticipated. (In retrospect, I think that a very vocal Rome-or-bust minority got a lot more attention than was really warranted, thus fueling the impression that a major exodus was on the way.)

Dear Peter,

The thing is young and the varied hues of high Anglicans who had a fixed gaze Rome-ward have to still work out some issues - which is why they are seeing how the Ordinariate will work itself out.

A similar thing would occur if the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox would unite and revoke the excommunications against the teachers and saints they have disliked for centuries. This would take time.

Even the name "Armenian" for Greeks and others signified, "heretic" and most certainly it would take time to get over that!

Let me illustrate with an ecumenical Anglican group to which I also belong. The Anglicans there were of varied types. Today, they are ALL members of the Ordinariate save for one hold-out.

Give it time sir! "Rome"and union with it wasn't established in a day . . .

Alex

The idea of the Ordinariates is not to try to get Anglicans to come into union with Rome, but rather to make reasonable accommodation for those Anglicans who -- of their own accord -- wish to do so.

"We are not fishing in the Anglican lake" - Cardinal Kasper

Dear Peter,

And the difference between those two is . . . ?

The Anglicans who have joined the Ordinariate are truly trying to get other Anglicans and Lutherans to join, in other words, people who would otherwise not think of joining.

At an event recently involving many Anglicans, I overheard several Ordinariate Anglicans (they tend to call themselves variously) try to get others to join. One said, "You know, the Pope is head of the Church on earth, always was, always will be . . ."

Rome also keeps promising the Orthodox the EC's and RC's in Russia are not there to convert them . . . Eye-witnesses, including my in-laws, saw quite differently. They saw RC missionaries try to get Russians to become . . . Latin Catholics and in several parishes they visited, they saw the success with which Russians became Latin Catholics.

I wouldn't believe anything Cardinal Kasper has to say, if I were you. He says one thing to the UGCCers, another to the ROC and then there is always the Italian press in Rome . . .

But I digress . . . There is a manifest role for the Ordinariate which you have succinctly stated, quoting Kasper, and then there is the latent role. That's just the way it is.

Alex

Apparently it's the same in Ethiopia and Eritrea. I met a wonderful nun, can't remember if she's Malankara or Malabar Catholic, but she is serving the poor out there. When they request to become Catholics, they are brought in as Latins, not Malabar, Malankara, or even Ethiopian Catholics. I was dumbfounded as to why.

I guess Rome doesn't want to dis them by spreading Uniatism!

But if they "convert" them to Roman Catholicism, then everyone should be happy right?

There are times when I wonder what is going on in RC diplomats' heads (if anything).

At other times, I wonder what we Easterners are doing in union with Rome . . .

Can't say more on this because I don't want to gainsay Todd on this matter

Alex

That actually kind of illustrates my point. As you say, officially Catholics don't encourage Orthodox to become Catholic (we even have this sentence in the Balamand Statement: "Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other") but some Catholics do anyhow.

It's really not even slightly surprising, then, that there are some Catholics out there who push Anglicans to become Catholic. (It would be surprising if they didn't!)

Dear Peter,

And you illustrate my point as well.

Except you say "some" Catholics do. The point is that it is probably going on at a level so as to cause deep distrust among Orthodox and demonstrates inconsistency with what the "official" statements of church authorities and theologians affirm.

I don't know why you say that it wouldn't be surprising.

That Roman Catholics try to convert people in Eastern territories to the Latin Rite and not to the EC churches that are spiritually native to them?

It would be better for the RC's to just keep out and stay home in that case.

It's not as if Roman Catholic missionaries don't have a ton of work to do in North and South America and in Europe in terms of the "new evangelisation."

One great catechetical goal would be to bring back to the Church those Catholics in the West who have joined all manner of sects and other groups.

Is it because you don't think you can do it that you travel to far-off lands, fresh from years of Christian persecution, to install Latin missions?

Come on now, the RC Church is going down the toilet in the West and it knows it.

Evangelisation begins at home!

Alex

Well, I thought my statement -- namely, that it isn't surprising "that there are some Catholics out there who push Anglicans to become Catholic" (in view of the fact that some Catholics even proselytize Orthodox) was pretty clear, but perhaps it wasn't? Or did you just not read it very carefully? [Linked Image]

Well, I can't really answer that because if I did install missions (which I don't) they wouldn't be Latin missions.

Is it possible that you're allowing bad experiences to cloud your view of Latin Catholics? I'm not trying to be a mind-reader or anything, I'm just asking ... but speaking as someone who was Latin Catholic for 20+ years, I feel pretty sure that statements like "Come on now, the RC Church is going down the toilet in the West and it knows it." wouldn't go over too well with them. [Linked Image]

Dear Peter,

I apologise, sorry.

But my point, I believe, stands. The Latin Church has some serious issues in the West and it is concerned with sending missionaries to areas that are of Orthodox jurisdiction.

They should focus on regaining their own territory that is slipping from their fingers.

Again, I apologise.

Alex

I agree.

Perhaps one Balamand Statement wasn't enough ... or maybe it should have repeated the part about "Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other" three or four times for those who missed it the first time.

Dear Peter,

Yes, at least three or four times!

My in-laws attended an RC Mass while in Russia attended by mostly Russian converts.

They were surprised and even upset that Russians were being converted to Roman Catholicism. When they asked the priest about it and why he wasn't serving the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, he simply said, "Well, because that isn't my tradition . . ."

We don't have to go to Balamand but to Vatican II to read about the rules in place about that.

Even a parish like that can blow up the ecumenical venture here.

Alex

I always tell people that I neither encourage nor discourage Orthodox from becoming Catholic, but often when I say that I suspect that many of my fellow Catholics -- Latin and Eastern alike -- aren't really grasping the distinction.

(I realize that may not be highly relevant to your last post, since you were talking specifically about Latin Catholic activity in Eastern territory. But I decided to say it anyhow. )