www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What does the Pope mean by this?

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/?ref=search

"As for the three questions you asked me in the article of August 7th. It would seem to me that in the first two, what you are most interested in is understanding the Church's attitude towards those who do not share faith in Jesus. First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith. Given that - and this is fundamental - God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil. The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision."

I kind of need a clarification on this.

The statement is not focusing on salvation, but on the mercy of God.

To paraphrase, one who truly seeks to do what is right and follows the conscience that is part of his being is already on the right path, the path that leads to Jesus Christ. He may not yet believe, but he is walking on the right path. That honest striving towards what is right is seen by the Lord, and His mercy is infinite.

Thank you. I was having a hard time understanding him. I think it might have been lost in translation.

Any one who is saved, is saved through Christ alone: whether he acknowledges it or not, whether he is materially connected to the Church or not; every person who is saved is mystically part of the Body of Christ.

Dear Stuart,

How Vatican Two of you!

Alex

That is a beautifully written text by Pope Benedict, while what Pope Francis wrote seems to be a disjointed mishmash of ideas. I do not think that the quote from Lumen Fidei applies to what Pope Francis is saying, because he states quite plainly - and in opposition to the quotation from Lumen Fidei - that he is talking about "those who do not believe and do not seek faith." In fact, Pope Francis has actually not answered the atheist editor's question. Pope Francis and Pope Benedict, who is clearly the more informed of the two, are not talking about the same thing. Ironic as it is to say, Pope Francis has taken a Pelagian position - odd because he loves to accuse so-called "traditionalists" of that very heresy - by saying that one who does not even seek God can be forgiven by just following his conscience. It is evident to me that Pope Francis needs to sit down and work out his thoughts before writing any thing in the future.

Dear Todd,

I think you've misunderstood the Administrator and Pope Francis here.

The fact is that Pope Francis has thought out carefully what he wants to say.

It is just that you don't agree with him and are ready to accuse him of heresy.

That is reallly unfair and uncharitable.

And if we want to accuse people of heresies, there are all kinds of them we can pick from.

Pelagianism is something that could ultimately apply to any number of us, given the mood of our attackers.

And you yourself know that if someone called themselves an "Orthodox Christian" who is also a Melkite - that, in and of itself, would be deemed "heretical" by Orthodoxy.

So please don't be like someone in a glass house who casts stones.

Alex

Oh, I do so hope you're wrong.

His Holiness reminds me of Popes from the past centuries. People forget all the variety that exists through history. Not every Pope is ment to be a "Doctor of the Church" even if they have the infallibility on faith and morals as natural to their office. During the 16th and 11th c. there were plenty of unusual characters as Pope.

I'm agree with what Apotheoun said. I do not believe His Holiness is as able to concisely clearly express himself in complex encyclicals as Benedict. It's amazing how differently God makes us and how different leaders he gives to the Churches at various times.

Most of what Francis says is not anymore unusual than surprising things past Popes have said - although I would concede that some of his views are distinctly unique to our modern ecumenical era . I would also agree that there's too much of a double standard for how those attached to the tridentine mass are judged, compared to how the various "liberals" are seem to be given free reign to infiltrate the average parish and average religious order with their poisonous heresies.

The "traddies" that are basically the strength and backbone of the latin church are viewed with far too much suspicion by certain members of the hierarchy. I do not believe they are a threat. If there hadnt been such suppression of the traditional theology and liturgy in the 1970's no issues would have even arisen with groups such as the SSPX, none of it made sense. SSPX didnt ask to be schismatic it simply stayed attached to a tradition that no Pope had the authority to overturn. A Pope has no authority to eliminate the byzantine rite or eliminate the historic latin rite, they are ment to preserve the received tradition not discard and replace it with something entirely new. Our historic rites and liturgies reflect the very teachings and faith we believe. When you tinker with liturgy and eliminate elements of it, you are eliminating the very morals and faith emenating from it. Adding on organically is very different than taking away articifically.

My view is that if His Holiness can not appreciate his own historic latin rite, how can any of his respect for the byzantine rite be genuine, that itself is another double standard.

In time this should subside. In time divine providence will be acknowledged and experiments toward restoring the latin church into a purified mythical "early christian" church will be realized as the destructive utopian idealism that it is. A view originating during the 16th reformation and counter reformation. It is time for that view will be crushed.

Dear Xristoforos,

The problem with Benedict was that he was a scholar and had difficulty connecting with people who are not so inclined. It's not surprising that scholarly posters here like Apotheoun, yourself and others prefer Benedict.

Todd raised the issue of "offense" given by Francis to Catholics who presented him with a bouquet of thousands of rosaries.

In fact, throughout my life I've been given the same advice by very Eastern-leaning, traditional EC priests and monastics.

Whenever I said I would pray for some cause, I'd always see my prayer in terms of so many prayers said so many times.

These priests and monastics immediately told me, in very similar terms to what Pope Francis said, that prayer is not about arithmetic etc.

Francis reminded us all of that fact - it is part of the traditional wisdom of the saints, after all.

In short, Pope Francis will and does connect to so many people in a way Pope Benedict could not.

And there is no way that Benedict's stepping down was not done in conjunction with Vatican administrators and advisors.

Alex

JDC,

Francis is a Jesuit, he does nothing without thinking things through very well.

If you don't know that, then you don't know the Jesuits!

Alex

It has nothing to do with Jesuits. It has to do with making the charitable assumption that all this has just been a series of mistakes.

Just making a comment in general and it is certain that the current pope's Jesuit background influences a lot about him.

As for the series of mistakes, we don't know that and time will tell. In any event, I don't agree.

Alex

Sadly, those priests and monastics were clearly unfamiliar with the Roman Catholic custom of giving a bouquet of rosaries to people. The whole theory of indulgences is an application of that same idea, but if Pope Francis wants to repudiate another aspect of Roman Catholic tradition who am I to worry about such a thing. After all, I am not a Roman Catholic. Nevertheless, I can see his action as rude, which it was, and as sad because it involves yet another instance of Roman Catholics (this time the Pope himself) dumping a long standing custom of the Latin Church.

As an Eastern Christian I do not pray the rosary, because as far as I am concerned it does not mesh well with the Byzantine tradition, but I will say this, if a Roman Catholic friend told me that he was going to pray the rosary for me (or for my deceased parents, etc.) I would say "Thank you." I would not tell him that he should just, "pray for me in a general way, instead of praying the rosary," because that would be extremely rude.

Todd,

First of all, "those priests and monastics" were Eastern Catholic and Orthodox so, yes, they were not familiar with the practice of offering bouquets of rosaries. And I didn't say they were reacting to my praying the rosary.

Secondly, the rosary may not mesh with your idea of Byzantine Catholicism, but the Orthodox Saint Seraphim of Sarov, St Seraphim Zvezdinsky and a whole choir of Saints at Diveyevo Lavra in Russia did indeed, and still do, pray the Rule of the Theotokos or the Rosary. I've just ordered an Orthodox Lestovka from Diveyevo, 150 small steps divided every ten, for praying the 150 Hail Mary's. And they make these in a blue colour in honour of the Theotokos, with rolled up pieces of paper with the "Rejoice Theotokos Virgin" written on each and inserted into each step. If you become truly Orthodox, perhaps you might take up the practice!

Finally, Pope Francis NEVER told anyone to pray something instead of the Rosary. He prays the rosary daily.

He was simply talking about an emphasis on the rhythm, rather than the arithmetic, of prayer - like other priests and religious I've spoken to.

When a pope or other spiritual father teaches, we should never feel offended, but should try to learn something from his words

Alex