www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What does the Pope mean by this?

Isn't that what I said:


I do not care what other Byzantine Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians do in their private devotions. The rosary - as a form of prayer - does not work for me because it requires the use of imagination in a way that is condemned by St. Gregory of Sinai, and other authors I have read.

This just isn't so.

Dear JDC,

We have a difference of opinion.

Alex

Dear Todd,

I was saying that the rosary may not mesh with YOUR perspective on the Byzantine tradition. In fact, it has been widely practiced in Orthodox Russia and elsewhere.

I once rejected it and my acquaintances who were very Eastern did so as well - they told me it was foreign to the Byzantine tradition too. And you, they and I were all completely wrong on the matter.

St Seraphim of Sarov INSISTED that his spiritual children recite the Rule of the Theotokos daily and the like, there are other examples, like at Diveyevo where the 150 Hail Mary's, said in groups of ten for each of 15 moments in the lives of Christ and His Most Holy Mother.

As for the imagination, that is just one way in which the rosary is practiced in the West, but as to how far this actually occurs is questionable.

The Orthodox Rule included a troparion recited before or after each decade that summarized the event being celebrated (the Nativity of Christ etc.).

The most popular form of the rosary in the West has always been the "clausular" rosary where a different clause is inserted into the Hail Mary so that it becomes a refrain.

I've spoken with Orthodox priests and even some bishops about this and they have assured me that this was perfectly within the realm of Orthodox spirituality.

And I say this as someone who, when I began a kind of "Eastern self-renewal" in university, rejected the rosary outrightly.

I have come back to it thanks to Orthodox books like "Staretz Zechariah: an early Soviet Saint" and others.

It is really no different than the repeated refrains of canons, akathists and even the daily, repeated prayers of the Divine Office.

St Seraphim of Sarov, my patron, is my guide here as well.

Alex

Guys, look - this has become something other than what a conversation should be here.

I'm not out to change anyone's mind about Pope Francis, the Moscow Patriarch or anyone for that matter.

So over to you.

Alex

Dear brother Chadrook,

Given that the Latin Catholic Tradition understands that the conscience is not some bunch of chemical signals (according to some atheistic concepts), but is actually the movement of God within the individual, it appears that what the Pope is saying is that if an atheist asks for forgiveness at all, it will be due to the movement of God within the atheist, and God will respond with mercy, since the atheist is responding to His call - indeed, on the right path.

If one realizes that this is the definition of "conscience" according to Latin Catholic Tradition (actually, I would say it is just plain old Catholic/Orthodox Tradition, not particularly Latin Catholic), it would be impossible to assign any notions of Pelagianism to what Pope Francis stated.

Blessings,
Marduk

I already responded to you on this issue. Evidently you are not reading my posts.

And I am not out to change your mind either. I was just expressing my concerns, which grow with every interview Pope Francis gives to the media. I do wish he would stop talking to the media, but alas I think he likes the attention.

Dear Todd,

I don't believe you did respond or, if you believe you did, it wasn't to the particular issue I had raised.

You are getting rather testy (and when it comes to the pope, way out of line).

While the pope won't stop speaking, I will.

Alex

That was my response, and you simply said a second time that there are some Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who pray the rosary. See my response above.

I am not "testy" at all. In debates I remain quite stoic.

That said, you are free to post to your hearts content. Sadly Pope Francis is also free to speak as much as he wants.

Todd - you know I both love you and respect your scholarship very deeply.

Perhaps I'm idealizing this pope too much - I don't know.

It's a knee-jerk reaction, at root, for a Ukie Catholic whose relatives were tortured for communion with previous popes (some of whom couldn't take the persecution and gave in, truth be told).

As an aside, during a high school graduation, I was made to sit with a bishop (because no one else apparently would).

When I told him about one relative who became Orthodox under pressure from the soviets and how he later went to confession each year to confess it - the bishop simply said, "Well, he was repenting of his sin."

I was shocked he could say that. I don't believe my relative committed a sin. I wanted to move away from him, but the principal kept giving me these unholy stares . . .

God bless you, Todd, the servant of God!

Alex

Since this is still moving along, the Pope has made some new statements.

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/10/01/news/pope_s_conversation_with_scalfari_english-67643118/

"And I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place."

Has he been to LA lately? So it is my conception of evil that counts? Sorry, but I am finding this a bit problematic.

Chad,

Every time I read this interview, I am dumbfounded as to the spiritual depth of Pope Francis and his understanding of the contemporary world, with its agnostics, atheists et al.

I myself have spent more time discussing faith with atheists than with anyone else in my classes and at work. Don't know why. And the conversations we've had resemble that of the Pope with this gentleman very much. The Pope has obviously opened up the possibility of faith to many atheists, if he can speak as he has here.

What he referred to, in your question, was about how everyone sees what is truly objective, from within the prism of their own weltanschaunng or world-view.

Truth is mediated to us via the prism of our understanding, aided by grace, impacted by our culture and our struggle with sin.

People have different perspectives and if we adhered solidly to what we believe is good, this would be a better world.

But we know what is good and refuse to do it, that is the problem.

I'm happy you raised this issue because this is the very line of argument I've always used in speaking with non-believers to get them to open up to God and faith.

It is possible to change the minds of non-believers, even to convert them.

I thank God for having used poor instruments, like me and others, to bring non-believers to the Church.

Alex

Below is an article that gives a solid Catholic presentation on the nature of conscience. I truly miss Pope Benedict.

Conscience and Truth [ewtn.com] by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger