|
0 members (),
276
guests, and
72
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,493
Posts417,361
Members6,136
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 37
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 37 |
Bless Father David,
Was the original purpose of the fans to keep flies away from the altar wine?
Reverencing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010 Likes: 1 |
Yes, I believe so. The rubrics for their use during the Anaphora are still present in liturgical books, as is the mention that one of the small veils may be used in place of a fan. In the Russian tradition, the gifts are only fanned by a deacon on the day of his ordination; it is not done at other times. However, over time, the fans have also become ceremonial items, being carried over holy items or in processions.
Fr. David
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 37
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 37 |
Bless Father David!
You mean the veil or square that I see our deacons move over the Gifts during the Divine Liturgy?
Reverencing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 69
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 69 |
Would it be safe to say that the Byzantine Churches are better at delatinizing while the Oriental Churches are having a more difficult time? Not exactly. It varies by region, bishop, even parish. Some Oriental Catholics are quite staunch about preserving their non-Latinized Holy Traditions. That's true, but sadly it mainly applies to the Syro-Malankara. I do, however, give immense credit to the Chaldeans for their attempts at restoration. And to the Syro-Malabars, particularly now under the tutelage of Mar George, for trying to eliminate latinizations, both those externally and internally imposed. But the rest of the Orient? Not so much.  The rest of the Orient is actually embracing Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization more and more. It's truly sad. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 392 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 392 Likes: 1 |
Would it be safe to say that the Byzantine Churches are better at delatinizing while the Oriental Churches are having a more difficult time? Not exactly. It varies by region, bishop, even parish. Some Oriental Catholics are quite staunch about preserving their non-Latinized Holy Traditions. That's true, but sadly it mainly applies to the Syro-Malankara. I do, however, give immense credit to the Chaldeans for their attempts at restoration. And to the Syro-Malabars, particularly now under the tutelage of Mar George, for trying to eliminate latinizations, both those externally and internally imposed. But the rest of the Orient? Not so much. The rest of the Orient is actually embracing Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization more and more. It's truly sad. What about the Armenian and Ethiopian Catholics? How are they when it comes to latinization?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978 |
Isn't there a movement in the Maronite Church to return to authentic Maronite Traditions and Lliturgical praxis?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 69
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 69 |
From what I've heard, both are in pretty bad shape in that department.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 69
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 69 |
Isn't there a movement in the Maronite Church to return to authentic Maronite Traditions and Lliturgical praxis? Well, yes, but there are two things here. The first is the revisionists (who are, of course, the ones in power) insist that they're doing just that. Sounds like the Novus Ordo, doesn't it?  The second follows from the first, in that the real movement for restoration is thwarted, ignored, and ridiculed (e.g. we're often referred to as "crackpots" or worse) by those in power. It's truly an uphill struggle.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 46
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 46 |
I cannot speak to any Russian practice, Orthodox or Catholic, but my experience is that cross and fans are normally stationary behind the Altar, and only removed for processions on Feasts days. In other places, I have seen that fans brought out for the time of the Gospel reading. Most places, they just stay behind the Altar the whole time, from what I have seen. I do not consider the processional fans or cross to be a Latinization. The only Latinization I see if that God-forsaken chair shown in the clip. Chairs are a distant cousin of the pew, which is known by all as a Protestant heresy, so the chair, being basically a mini, one-person pew, is slightly heretical at worst, but a Latinization at best.  Naw. Pews existed well before the reformation. You're simply parroting myth meant to demean.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421 |
I was told that the fans harken back to the times when the sacrifice (flesh of an animal sacrificed on the altar) where used to keep the flies off the offering ... having nothing to do with flies in wine.
One church I attended used the fans at every Great Entrance and even the Little Entrance and were used on each side of the Gospel. In fact everything in the sanctuary was used for both little and Great entrance - censer - lights - fans - cross -
Last edited by haydukovich; 09/28/13 07:25 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760 |
I do not consider the processional fans or cross to be a Latinization. The only Latinization I see if that God-forsaken chair shown in the clip. Chairs are a distant cousin of the pew, which is known by all as a Protestant heresy, so the chair, being basically a mini, one-person pew, is slightly heretical at worst, but a Latinization at best. Naw. Pews existed well before the reformation. You're simply parroting myth meant to demean. What are you saying Franciscum, that pews being a "protestantism" is a "village legend"?  Just wondering.....did they make the Emperor and Patriach stand in Hagia Sophia?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 82
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 82 |
Seating for the Faithful is not a Latinization. There are ancient pre-schism rubrics that refer to sitting. For example the Psalms are divided into Kathisma, which means sitting for the people sat when the Psalms were read. We have an ancient service to the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary called the Akathist Hymn which literally translates "Not sitting." If the ancient Church of Constantinople had a service called "Not Sitting," that means that the faithful sat at times during services.
There are pews in St. Mary's Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus for the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. There are also pews in St.George's Cathedral the Cathedral for the Ecumenical Patriarch. Monasteries have a kind of pew along the sides of the Nave.
Archpriest John W. Morris
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 82
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 82 |
In Antiochian Orthodox practice the cross and lanterns are used for the Little Entrance. The Cross and fans are used for the Great Entrance which unlike the Russian practice goes down the side aisle to the back of the Nave and then down the central aisle to the Solea.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226 |
The Cross and fans are used for the Great Entrance which unlike the Russian practice goes down the side aisle to the back of the Nave and then down the central aisle to the Solea. Yes. I like this practice of the Antiochians.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226 |
Seating for the Faithful is not a Latinization. I have a question for you Father. The Antiochian parishes (and some Greeks) have the epistle reader facing the people with their backs to the Altar when they read the epistle. Most other jurisdictions have the epistle reader facing the Altar when they read. What is the reason for this? Was it changed at some point by the Antiochian Orthodox, and if so, by whom?
|
|
|
|
|
