www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy Latinisation?

Dear Royal Stuart,

A friend of mine, a UGC priest, was in St George's Cathedral in L'viv some years back, as a guest homilist.

As he waited to be introduced by the parish priest, he saw that twenty-five minutes had elapsed since the parish priest began to speak.

So he thought that he shouldn't speak longer than for another ten minutes of so . . .

After the Liturgy, he saw the parish priest approach him in a rather agitated state . . .

"Don't you ever do that to me again, Father!"

My priestly friend asked him what he did to deserve his opprobrium . . .

"Look, you came all the way from Canada as our guest . . . the people expected you to give a SERMON - and what did you do? Is that called a sermon where you are from? Well?"

My friend found that people in the "old country" expect to spend several hours in church and actually look forward to hearing long sermons.

He also saw how priests are kept busy there from morning until late at night with various duties - mostly by people who demand baptisms, blessings, confessions etc. etc.

Alex

I really cannot believe what I am reading here, arguing and pontificationg about what? Pews, of all things! ... and that someone would make such a statement that pews are "an abomination. 'Take them out and burn them.'" All of Heaven must be looking down on us and sighing a big "How childish people are even after 2000 years of Christianity!" Lord, O Lord, have mercy!

My dad, an Orthodox priest, was a guest of honor at the Greek Catholic Cathedral of St. John in Presov at his cousin's son's First Mass some fifteen or so years back. The bishop allowed him to even preach the homily in "ponashemu" of course! After it was over two things, the bishop complimented him on his perfect Rusyn "Sarishan" dialect and the babas, who didn't realize (or care more likely) that he was "pravoslav" thanked him for its twenty minute brevity. Go figure. I see from Bishop Sasik's videos from Muchachevo that long long homilies are the norm. Go figure??

I suppose a long sermon may have benefits for some people: it gives them a chance to nod-off and cacth some Zzzzzzz's in total oblivion.

We had a priest growing up sent to the homiletics center (which the diocese used when priests needed to "dry out").

His homilies changed from run of the mill to very good.

He told us that the most important thing they taught him was "seven minutes" . . .

I've observed over the years that very few priests can go past that while still actually saying something. And of those who can, many are talking *way* above the heads of the congregation.

And as for pews . . . my knees are *much* better since changing from roman rite to a byzantine parish . . .

hawk

Kyr Kallistos likes to say, "A good homily should have three points, no more, and no less".

I love the breakdown regarding homilies (sermons) taught to us at Mount St. Mary's Seminary in Emmitsburg, MD:

1. Homilette - that which one gives on weekdays.
2. Homily - Sunday fare.
3. Homilong - you can get away with it on big occasions, but try not to.
4. Homilicide - for the love of God and His holy people - please don't.

Thanks! I needed a morning smile.

(With due apologies to my brothers and sisters from south of that Line), then there's hominy - of which no one should ever partake, neither before nor after a homily.

Many years,

Neil

Down here hominy is generally eaten before the homily as part of a hangover cure called menudo. It is a wonderful soup made with hominy, cows stomach and pigs feet.

As one who was born and raised outside of Atlanta....

"Thet, suh, is strictly yo damn Yankee opinion!!!"

There is a Mexican soup called pozole, made chiefly of hominy and pork. It should be partaken whenever possible. If you try it, you will love it forever. You will also repent of your former opinions.

Caleb

There are pews in St. Mary's Cathedral in Damascus, the Cathedral of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch. I have always questioned the argument that seating in an Eastern Orthodox Church are a Latinization. There are ancient liturgical texts that predate the schism that refer to sitting. For example in the Greek/Antiochian tradition we chant the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos on Friday evenings of Great Lent. Akathist literally means "not sitting." That would imply that people sat at times during services. The Psalms are divided into 20 Kathisma, which means "sitting," because one traditionally sits when the Psalms are read.

By Latinisation what is meant? There are some good ways that the Western Church has and some bad. Pews are not feasible in large cathedrals, but in smaller churches they are necessary. In the Ancient Latin Rite the processional cross was only used for Masses with a Bishop, but now is used too much. I prefer the processional cross to be used only in Masses with a Bishop and I believe that this understanding is shared here. The importance of the procession is what is being processed; in the Little Entrance it is the Evangelion, in the Great Entrance the Sacred Gifts. The fans are always surrounding these elements; so, the processional cross is really not necessary in non-hierarchical Divine Liturgies, but this is my opinion.

Archaeology is pretty clear that pews were not incorporated into ancient churches. Benches were scattered around the nave (or built into the walls) to allow some to sit, and other people brought folding chairs, but the default posture was always standing. Rubrics for the reading of the Kathismata ("While Seated") of the Psalms as well as for the Akathistos ("While Standing"), were introduced to the liturgy from monastic usage, where services could run continuously for several hours. As monastic congregations were small, enough seating could be provided for all, but was used only at specified times. In parochial and cathedral services, the people usually just sat on the floor, generally during the homily, or through long readings of the Psalms.