www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Roman Catholic Doctrine of Mary's Impeccability

That is too bad, because if you could find texts by reputable Eastern Orthodox authors that support the Roman Catholic doctrine of Mary's impeccability it would have major ecumenical implications.

Do you believe that God, even if he chose a woman who COULD sin against Him, chose a woman who WOULD sin against Him?

As you noted, there is a paradox in the popular Latin belief on impeccability. The Latin teaching unequivocally states that free volition must be present for Grace to be effective. The sources you have given almost all state, as well, that Mary freely responded to the Grace of impeccability.

So the statement "She COULD NOT sin" must have some nuance that we must be willing to consider if we are to reconcile the sure Latin teaching on Free Will/Grace with the popular belief of Mary's impeccability.

Blessings,
Marduk

I cannot know the mind of God if that is what you are asking, but I do not believe that God restricts the will of any person, and so Mary was able to sin, but she chose not to of her own accord in cooperation with the divine energies.

As a hypothetical question, was God free to choose a woman who would sin, yes, I believe God was free to do that. Be that as it may, God would not predestine that woman's free will actions in either manner, because if that was the case it would follow that she was not truly free, but was merely His puppet.

That is not my concern in this thread. I started this thread simply to post texts by reputable Catholic authors discussing the doctrine of Mary's inability to sin. How those authors choose to reconcile free will with that notion is their own business. So far most are content to assert that Mary was free in spite of the fact that she could not sin.

Granted. Like you said, we are discussing the writing of these Latin Catholic authors. What I'm trying to understand is the apparent paradox that you pointed out.

My solution (that "she COULD NOT sin" CAN be tantamount to "she WOULD NOT sin") is a definite possibility. If you are married, consider this:
For me, I believe utterly that my wife COULD NEVER be unfaithful to me. If I believed otherwise, I would never have married her. Our love has only deepened over the years and I am of the utmost belief that she is NOT CAPABLE of being unfaithful to me because of our love for each other.

Imagine the same situation with the very spouse of the Holy Spirit, the most holy Theotokos.

With that in mind, I will ask you again, but will present the question in a slightly different form - do you believe that God would have chose a woman who He knew COULD be unfaithful to Him?

Blessings,
Marduk

The funny thing about our discussion so far is that you are the one concerned about free will and predestination. I did not bring up those topics. I started the thread only in order to post texts on Mary's impeccability that were written by approved Roman Catholic theologians.

OK, so the thread was only for information and not for discussion?

Why do you have to come up with a solution? Must everything be solved?

Yes, of course, but these are topics that naturally form part of the matter. If your only purpose was for information, and not discussion, then the thread should probably be closed?

I created the thread to post texts. If people want to discuss the actual texts that is okay by me. But the thread was not created to talk about a whole bunch of ancillary topics. Nor did I see the thread as an exercise in finding a "solution" to some perceived problem.

If it involves a potential for disagreement between the Latin Church and our Churches, yes, I'm all for a solution.

Disagreements with your Church maybe, but as a Melkite I have never been told that my Church believes that Mary is impeccable. It is a non-issue to Melkites.

Mardukm, sometimes your approach to issues comes off as a solution looking for a problem.

Free will and predestination are "ancillary topics?" Perhaps it is you who do not have a proper grasp of the matter?

What kind of discussion about the actual texts were you hoping to inspire?

You already admitted a potential problem because you "have never been told that my Church believes that Mary is impeccable." If this belief is floating around in the Latin Catholic Church, you don't see a potential problem that may require a solution?

Well, why not look at a particular text, and highlight (as you did in one post) some elements of it, and then discuss those elements. In the post where you did that I pointed out that the "extrinsic" versus "intrinsic" question was actually discussed more deeply in another of the quotations. I thought that was a particularly informative exchange, because it was not just a bunch of opinions spouted off as authoritative when they are not.