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I haven't studied Dositheus. Perhaps this is not an accurate summary of his theology? Or maybe he expressed his theology poorly?

As Father Ambrose noted, if a man who is an honest penitent is forgiven his sins by a priest in Confession then he is forgiven.

The only way I can make sense of the statement is to relate it to the theology of satisfaction. That is, that a man must make recompense for his crimes. But even here the priest has the liberty to forgive making restitution. But the penitent must be repentant and honest in confession. For example, a man who steals a cow cannot confess his sins and obtain forgiveness and then go home and roast the cow (this would mean that the man was not an honest penitent).

I don't know if the official Latin Church documents use the term "debitum" but if it does, then "debt" is probably not the best English term to use in translation.

The Latin theology of "temporal punishment" that can possibly extend into the next life (i.e., "purgatory") is the purification (purgation) of the attachment to sin.

I suppose one can say that the "debt" you pay in 'purgatory' is a purification/purgation which in reality is a conversion that unattaches you from a love of sin and attaches you to a love of the Lord Himself. [Or perhaps the final step in John 3:3?]

I recommend to anyone who studies the theology of the Latin Church to use the current edition of the Catholic Catechism as a guide to Church teaching. Many times translations from Latin don't quite convey the theology accurately, since a Latin term can have numerous shades of meaning in Latin that the same term does not have in English. This is especially true of older translations.

I really do not believe that either of our Churches teach that failure to fulfil these rather nebulous "works of repentance" brings about loss of salvation.

In a conversation on a clergy list (Russians and converts) we were talking about giving penances at confession. Every priest said they had never given a penitent a penance (i.e., had never asked them to perform any work of repentance.)

What about Byzantine Catholic priests?

As a layman, I had never received a penance as a Byzantine Catholic (eight years).......or as an Orthodox Christian (six years now).

I have had the opposite experience. I have received penances in both the Orthodox Church (three and 1/2 years) and the Byzantine Catholic Church (five years) at almost every confession. I don't think the assignment of penances after my confessions have had anything to do with indulgences.

I've received penance.

Penances are left up to the discernment of the Spiritual Father. The Spiritual Father must be uncompromisingly strict with him who sins callously. The one who is overcome by sin but who repents, becomes humble, and modestly asks for forgiveness, will be helped with discernment by his Spiritual Father to approach God again. This is what many of the Saints did. Saint Arsenios the Cappadocian as a Spiritual Father did not usually give the people penances. He tried to bring them to an awareness so that they themselves, out of philotimo, would choose to do some ascetic discipline or act of charity or other goodness. Whenever he observed a little child who was possessed or paralyzed and understood that the parents were the cause for the child’s suffering, he would first heal the child and then impose a discipline on the parents to make them careful in the future.

Elder Paisios

Dear Administrator,

Actually, the Creed is only named after Dositheus, it is an Orthodox creed that was signed by a number of Patriarchs of the East.

The creed affirms that satisfaction must be made, by way of fruits or works of repentance, for mortal sins forgiven, whether in this life or in the next.

I am happy with your response and hopefully Fr. Ambrose is as well.

As for temporal punishment, I don't see what this has to do with the forgiveness of Christ.

Death, concupiscence etc. are all "temporal punishments" for the sin of Adam and we have inherited his weakened nature and darkened mind - the consequences of his sin.

The fact that we are saved through Christ takes not one iota of any of this away.

I'm more inclined to go with the Catholic POV here and I believe you have expressed it within an Eastern framework.

Thank you.

Alex

The temporal punishment is because Christ was unable or unwilling to extend the divine sacrifice on the Cross to deal with it. He dealt to the eternal punishment due to sin but He left the temporal punishment intact.

This forms no part of Orthodox theology.

In that regard it is quite erroneous. Only the divine Son of God would be able to make "satisfaction" to the Father. Is this not the lynchpin of "Cur Deus Homo?" and anselmian atonement/satisfaction theology?

I understand the "penance" as spiritual exercises. One is forgiven whether it is done or not, but you will not grow closer to Christ and away from the sin if not for the spiritual exercise.

Even. Fr.Z on his blog - a traditional RC - said that penance isn't strictly REQUIRED for forgiveness, but failure to do it is indicative of an unwillingness. Of course, if forgotten or unable, then it's not required.

Father Ambrose,

Temporal punishment is quite different from being eternally lost in hell, of course.

Temporal punishment is part and parcel of our ongoing experience of the impact of Original Sin on our lives such as death, concupiscence and the darkening of the mind. The salvation of Christ transforms and transfigures us within the ongoing process of Theosis - but that doesn't mean we don't die or experience temptation via concupiscence and the other impacts of Original Sin in us (also our personal sins can and do make us more susceptible to concupiscence). Again, I see that as "medicinal" and necessary for our sin and sinfulness.

As for punishment itself, long prayer and on one's knees, fulfilling the diabetic fast at all times etc. - this is all done to discipline the flesh and to offer to God the fruits of repentance etc. It is as necessary for our spiritual health and for our salvation as anything else.

Suffering is part of our sinful condition - it is part of the consequence of having sinned. Christ redeemed us and keeps us, if we are willing, from eternal damnation from whence there is no escape because we have willfully put ourselves there.

The more this matter is reflected on, the more I am utterly convinced that the temporal punishment due to our sin, and also when that sin is forgiven, is a necessary thing. Again, it is not eternal (as the creed of Dositheus points out).

So if Orthodoxy affirms otherwise, I can't go along with it. Perhaps it means a similar thing - I don't know and don't have the ambition to study it, after all, am no theologian.

I agree with what the esteemed Administrator wrote above and will leave it at that.

Cheers,

Alex

Alex my friend, if neither of us knows that we are a disgrace to this august forum. Be blessed!

Orthodoxy affirms there is no such thing as temporal punishment. This renders the concept of Purgatory redundant. If we believed there were temporal punishment due to sin which goes with us into the afterlife we would be compelled to accept the teaching of Purgatory.

Bless Father,

I think we have different ideas about what temporal punishment is and it is completely different from the punishment of hell from which there is no escape.

Christ saved us from the punishment of hell. He did not remove temporal suffering from our life situations.

We may call it what we like - the creed of Dositheus makes it clear that we can be prevented, for a time, from entering heaven in the afterlife.

The differences are subtle. Don't believe they are so great that they build walls of separation that go all the way up to heaven.

I'll leave this now, Father, and give you my abiding reverence and respect.

Your sinful and unworthy servant,

Alex

Temporal punishment, either in this life or the next, is unknown to Orthodox believers. Christ does not inflict punishment on those whom He has forgiven.

Nobody enters either heaven or hell before the Day of the Last Judgement. Apart from the Saints who, most would say, do not live in the intermediate state with the rest of us. But there is absolutely NO pain, no torments, no punishment for the righteous in this intermediate state. It is for them a foretaste of the joy and blessedness of heaven.

-oOo-
Go back to message 400714 to see official statements on the Orthodox belief
https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbt...e_Indulgences_and_Eastern_Cat#Post400714

Saint Mark of Ephesus and the other Orthodox delegates at Florence spent an entire 3 months arguing with the Catholic delegates on this topic. No common agreement was reached.

In other words, this is a great mountain of an issue!