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Dear Father Ambrose,

Those Orthodox bishops at Florence remind me of a saying of St Thomas More after he angered Henry VIII and told his worried wife, "Alice, this (pointing to himself) is not the stuff of which martyrs are made."

I played Thomas More and loved that part of the play!

Plus, I disagree and firmly believe the Greek bishops wanted to leave because they had enough of all the pasta they were being served. . . .
Alex

But what that quote fails to recognize is the existence of pro-Latin Greeks who became not EC's but RC's as they believed the Orthodox East to be theologically and culturally stagnant - they were in love with the West.

The same thing happened among some Greeks at Lyons - they not only accepted the Filioque but loved it.

Alex

The saint, knowing that his death was imminent, was concerned that the patriarch or his hierarchs and clergy might make a display of feigned respect at his funeral, thereby confounding people into believing that Mark was in communion with them. Therefore, before trustworthy men, he addressed them in no uncertain terms, saying that he had never accepted communion with the pro-unionists and that he rejected the union and Latin dogmas. He then said, "I am absolutely convinced that the farther away that I stand from him (the patriarch) and those like him, the nearer I am to God and all the saints." The blessed man then commanded that none of that party were to approach either his burial or his grave. Further, he ordered that none of them that were with him were to concelebrate with the patriarch and his clergy in the divine services. He said that it absolutely befits them not to mix with the unionists, but to remain apart from them, until God shall grant correction and peace.
The Great Synaxaristes Of The Orthodox Chruch

I've learned something new. I did not know that the Ukrainian Catholic Church was not obliged to accept the doctrine of purgatory!

A good competent spiritual father and confessor may ask a penitent to undertake some tasks or do some prayers which will be beneficial to assist his healing/learning process. He will not impose any thing in the nature of punishment. I suppose that we ultimately have a slightly different paradigm of God.... in the West He punishes repentant people who have sinned. In the East Christ has already assumed any and all punishment due to our sins and His interest is not to punish but to heal. Be blessed!

-oOo-
One of the canons of the Sixth Ecumenical Council declares: "Receiving from God the power to bind and loose, the priest must evaluate the nature of sin and preparedness of the repentant, and thus utilize appropriate means of healing. But if not applying appropriate means to this or the other, salvation will not be available to the sinner. For all sins are not similar, but different and specific, and represent many aspects of harm from which evil develops and disperses further, unless it is stopped by the healing power."

My mistake. It was George Scholarios (later Patriarch) and not Sidiropoulos.

We see it wasn't just Saint Mark. Some fled. Some signed under duress but still had the bravery to say their signatures did not bind their Churches.

St Mark of Ephesus pray for us!

Toll houses? Mytarstva?

There were no representatives at Florence from the most ancient Patriarchates - the holy Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria.

Also, there were no representatives from the Churches of Serbia, Bulgaria, Cyprus, etc.

How could a union be imposed on these autocephalous Churches without their participation and approval?

The Latin claim that union was achieved at Florence is not really sustainable.

Good point, Father.

I've always been assigned medicine like this, both from Latin and Eastern priests of different Churches; not punishments. Regarding punishment however, Easterners regularly impose fasts and other physical tasks (prostrations, kneelings, etc) while it is rare in the West. Perhaps this has something to do with it. After all, what good is a "penance" like fasting if you are already fasting.. and I don't know where to buy a hair shirt.. lol

Fr. Ambrose,

This is an interesting point, as it certainly lends weight to the thesis that the medieval Western mindset was extremely autocratic, and that from a Western perspective, it was normal for agreements to be made at the highest level, and from there it was expected to be a simple matter of loyalty for all at lower levels to accept the agreement. (Also, from such a perspective, it is clear why they would have thought it better to limit the number of parties in a discussion of this magnitude.)

In other words, the West regarded their disagreement as being primarily with the Patriarch of Constantinople himself, and assumed that if they could only get him to agree, everyone else would simply fall in line.

(This also helps to explain why they thought it necessary to define so many dogmas!)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Michael makes a good point with his light humor. Often, the words we use to describe those points of divergence in our traditions and teachings are oftentimes harsher in meaning than those differences are actually in width. Not always, but sometimes words become the problem rather than the substance behind them.

Prostrations and fasting are an integral part of my prayer rule. They are certainly not punishments.

http://www.cilice.co.uk/

Hairshirts, cilices (barbed wire bracelets for your thighs) whips - the essential items for any ascetic.