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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
I believe this to be nothing more than ill informed journalistic muckraking. If, and this is a big "if", this is true, this just destroys what little credibility the current Bishop of Constantinople still holds. After his disastrous meddling in the internal affairs of the Estonian and Ukrainian Churches, to label the Russian Church schismatic is just insane.
What the heck are you referring to here ^^ ?

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The order of the Diptychs need to be changed and the Ecumenical See needs to be moved to the true center of Orthodoxy, Third Rome.
Is this still part of the "If ..." ?

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I'm afraid there were only two Romes. The concept of a third one was part of a Russian power grab on the part of the Russian Patriarchs. No Roman government ever relocated to Russia.

However, it seems to me a great part of the secret to Orthodoxy preserving its ancient liturgy is precisely because no one is really in charge. Orthodoxy split into national churches which are entwined with the national cultures. Even if a particular church should get a crazy patriarch, his degree of damage would be limited to his nation's borders. It may be a good thing they never had a pope with revisions on his mind.

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Originally Posted by byzanTN
Orthodoxy split into national churches which are entwined with the national cultures.
It's broadly true and has been since apostolic days. Byzantine Catholic Churches seem to follow the same model.

Rome imposed uniformity on the West back in the centuries it was in communion with the other Patriarchates. It suppressed the ancient forms of Liturgy in Ireland, France and Spain, Southern Italy (which was Byzantine.) It even tried to suppress the native Ethiopian liturgy but was only half successful.

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They seem to have their knickers in the proverbial knot. I suppose though, that when one thinks and writes in archaic Byzantine court-style Greek and uses Google to translate the same into English, it sure seems zany! We've been discussing that letter elsewhere this past week. Apparently this snit fit has been ongoing for some years and to the Muslims it surely confirms their stereotypes about us for sure. A shame.

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Originally Posted by DMD
They seem to have their knickers in the proverbial knot. I suppose though, that when one thinks and writes in archaic Byzantine court-style Greek and uses Google to translate the same into English, it sure seems zany! We've been discussing that letter elsewhere this past week. Apparently this snit fit has been ongoing for some years and to the Muslims it surely confirms their stereotypes about us for sure. A shame.
Well, no one's getting killed, threatened, fatwa-ed or blown up over it, so we're still not up to their level of stereotype!

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by DMD
They seem to have their knickers in the proverbial knot. I suppose though, that when one thinks and writes in archaic Byzantine court-style Greek and uses Google to translate the same into English, it sure seems zany! We've been discussing that letter elsewhere this past week. Apparently this snit fit has been ongoing for some years and to the Muslims it surely confirms their stereotypes about us for sure. A shame.
Well, no one's getting killed, threatened, fatwa-ed or blown up over it, so we're still not up to their level of stereotype!

We are seemingly close to hurling verbal anathemas though! lol...except it's pathetic - not funny.

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by DMD
They seem to have their knickers in the proverbial knot. I suppose though, that when one thinks and writes in archaic Byzantine court-style Greek and uses Google to translate the same into English, it sure seems zany! We've been discussing that letter elsewhere this past week. Apparently this snit fit has been ongoing for some years and to the Muslims it surely confirms their stereotypes about us for sure. A shame.
Well, no one's getting killed, threatened, fatwa-ed or blown up over it, so we're still not up to their level of stereotype!

Post of the decade!

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Meanwhile Christianity in the West is both fragmented and dying. Non-belief is on the rise. I wonder in these disputes if these patriarchs remembered to recite the Jesus Prayer. That might assist them.

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Alas Benjamin, such disagreements and bad feelings occurred even among the holy Apostles....


"Paul and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the Word of the Lord, with many others also. And some days later, Paul said unto Barnabas, “Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the Word of the Lord, and see how they do.” And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought it not good to takehim with them, as he had departed from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them in their work. And the contention was so sharp between them that they parted one from the other; and so Barnabas took Mark and sailed to Cyprus. And Paul chose Silas and departed, being commended by the brethren unto the grace of God. And he went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches."
Acts 15

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Eastern Orthodox Unity

November 5, 2013
Ivan Plis
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/11/eastern-orthodox-unity

October was not a month of especial cooperation in the global Eastern Orthodox communion. Protesting the appointment in March of an archbishop for Qatar by the Church of Jerusalem, the Church of Antioch withdrew its participation from “all the Assemblies of Canonical Orthodox Bishops abroad.” The Antiochian Patriarchate claims sole authority over the small Gulf state though at present it has no parishes of its own there. The assemblies affected by this decision include the canonical episcopal council in North America, which counts several Antiochian bishops among its officers.


Meanwhile, following a visit to Indonesia by Serbia’s Patriarch Irinej, the Greek Orthodox Metropolitanate of Singapore expressed dismay that “the Church of Serbia never informed the local canonical Orthodox Metropolitan.” This comes after a series of incidents over the summer in which its sister see in Hong Kong unilaterally excommunicated clergy of another legitimate Orthodox jurisdiction serving in the Philippines.


A 2009 meeting in Chambésy, Switzerland appointed Orthodox regional assemblies to resolve issues like these. Its goal was to reach a modus vivendi in canonically fresh territory through gradual cooperation, seeking to carry out Christ’s commandments and minister to the whole world. Why, despite such good will, have occasional clashes persisted?


Orthodox Christians in the United States (along with Western Europe) enjoy a relatively well-established church infrastructure, and even before Chambésy our hierarchs have collaborated on everything from college ministry to pastoral discipline to social witness. We are learning to overcome the legacy of generations of canonical setbacks, including decades in which sister congregations had broken communion with one another. Many of these outward wounds have been healed, most notably the 2007 restoration of communion between the Russian Church Abroad and those churches which recognized the Church of Russia during the Soviet era.


But despite this reconciliation among local brethren, we still lack a permanent resolution to the patchwork of canonical Orthodox bodies that hold overlapping authority in the Americas, Western Europe, Asia, and Oceania. Chambésy addressed all these lands except Asia, since the existing bishops on the ground were so sparse that they could hardly constitute an assembly of their own. Hence the recent controversy.


Besides violating Orthodox ecclesial order, these disputes also portray Orthodoxy in the most unflattering light imaginable. I have already mentioned over half a dozen Orthodox governing bodies in passing. When he providentially encounters the Church, small in numbers as it is, the unfamiliar American must first navigate all kinds of terminological and organizational hurdles: “Is that church up the street Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, or something else? Why are those different, and why should I care, since my grandparents came to America from Norway and Vietnam?”


I set aside the question of whether he will feel welcome if he does, in fact, choose to visit an unfamiliar church with a strange name. St. Paul has a name for an impediment like those encountered by our hypothetical inquirer: skandalon.


There are plenty of obstacles to order and witness on the home front as well. The Patriarchate of Jerusalem, which Antioch has accused of overreach in the Gulf, has long been dominated by ethnically Greek hierarchs; only one Orthodox Palestinian currently holds episcopal office in the Holy Land. This has led to disaffection for the Church among many Orthodox-born Palestinians and Jordanians, some of whom have fled for other churches. And Antioch faces upheaval of its own, as the newly-elected Patriarch John (in Arabic, Youhanna) seeks to lead a Church for all Syrians in the midst of a divisive and deadly civil war. In a bitter twist, the Church of Antioch has just withdrawn from North America’s Assembly of Bishops, which oversees International Orthodox Christian Charities (IOCC)—one of the only relief agencies still active inside Syria’s borders.


The Chambésy process is the worst form of Orthodox church government for the 21st century, except for all the others. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople has the power to bring bishops together, but he cannot force them to accept an unwelcome edict. When disputes arise, they must be resolved honestly by brother bishops and their flocks, even if the solutions are slow to come.


Last Saturday the Antiochian Orthodox Church commemorated St. Raphael of Brooklyn. Born in Beirut and educated in Syria, Turkey, and Russia, he humbly and tirelessly served the diverse Orthodox flock in America in the early 20th century as their bishop. Even if churches of Slavic rite celebrated his memory back in February, he is a reminder to all Orthodox in this land that despite our formal divisions, we remain one body in Christ.


While our Church is hampered by human weakness and pettiness, much of the world is still what Protestants would call a mission field. The Orthodox Church has great riches, if like Fr. Raphael we allow ourselves to overcome our own ethnic allegiances and allow Christ to shine forth.


Ivan Plis is an Orthodox Christian in the Washington, DC area.

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Looking at this spiritually it could well be demonic forces which are striving to disrupt any mission in Muslim countries and in the Asian region.

In all these areas there is such massive work waiting to be done that all the Churches should be working there without rivalry. It is shameful that the Greek Metropolitans of Hong Kong and Singapore--two dioceses only recently created--should be causing trouble for other Orthodox Churches who have been established in these regions for longer than they have.

Let us pray the charity and reason will prevail.

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What is new about the fight between Constantinople and Moscow? I would remind all of you of the words of the Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus: " no wild beasts are so hostile to men as Christian sects in general are to one another.." Book 22, res Gestae. All we have here is a variation on a theme.

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Is there any wonder, when "brothers" treat each other in such a manner, that the Christian faith is rather unappealing to the pagans?

As Ghandi said "I like your Christ. It is His followers I have a problem with."

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I never liked Gandhi, the miserable old hypocrite.

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