www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Priestly celibacy

Hi,

I was making an assumption and, as I can clearly see, I was wrong.

I offer apologies.

In any event, this makes things sorta easier for Jim.

Jim,

As your Archbishop suggested, I also think you should go on and pursue ministry as a Deacon. Who knows, maybe in a few years it will be your Archbishop who will be asking you to consider priestly ordination.

If your call is indeed from God (and I am not even remotely suggesting it is anything but that), He will find a way.

Shalom,
Memo

If your Vocation is true, and you don't believe politics and Bishops' ------- matches may be permitted to deprive God of one of his Priests, then you may wish to approach a Bishop such as this one http://www.acrod.org/mn/. Besides, this http://www.acrod.org/seminary.html Seminary takes 1 year less time than this https://www.byzcath.org/seminary/index.htm one The Metroplia of Pittsburgh is hurting awfully bad for Priests! A half dozen or so Seminarians just doesn't cut it. Hopefully one or more of our Bishops realizes this and would take measures to prevent you from having to jump juridictions to live the will of God.

I am curious, not that you should have to have another job, would you be open tp working in another proffession and Ministering to a smaller parish?

Just an observation - the feelings or opinons of any Latin Catholic bishop should have absolutely no bearing on the Eastern Churches with respect to their policies on the priesthood.

I take it that Metropolitan Schott is the one who said no to Jim's desire to become a priest. I would hope that this isn't due to any pressure from any Latin hierarchs, not that that makes things any better.

If it were at all possible, I would leave my job and beome a married priest in the Latin Church - or at least discern for it. I would leave my job in a heartbeat in order to do this work if I were truly called to it. This is something my wife would support. However, this is closed to me. I cannot do this. It is discouraging to see that married Episcopal priests and Lutheran ministers can become Catholic priests, but not married Catholics.

Dear, in Christ,

Forgive me for entering into this thread. I am so sympathetic to Jim's feelings, and I want to support him in a difficult journey!

I am very happy having a discussion about the merits of a married priesthood, or about the history of the ordination of married men in this country, or some other country... in this century, or some other century. A thread about the discipline of celibacy and the virtue of chastity would also be interesting.

But our friend Jim, is speaking about himself, and that is much more complicated, and I feel uncomfortable discussing it in depth here. Jim is obviously disappointed with the answer he has received, and I feel his pain and empathize very much with his position.

But, we know that such decisions are not made simply by the Archbishop. There is a vocation's director, and a vocation's team, and a discernment board, and etc. and etc., and the Archbishop entrusts such decisions to a number of people, who may recommend this or that course of action for any number of reasons. Recommendations that the Archbishop (or any bishop for that matter) must hear and prayerfully consider.

Discussing such things in a public forum such as this one, is not really not helpful for Jim, or appropriate for us. We aren't part of that decision process, and we don't know what was considered.

The fact that Fred or Harry or Tom is married or unmarried may have been a crucial factor for the vocations team and discernment boards, or maybe it wasn't, how are we to know for sure? But such discussions are always private, and must remain so.

Jim should be encouraged to continue his journey. Many petitioners for Orders are refused the first time. (Many good priests, and even good bishops! had 'set-backs' along their path to Orders.) But there is no prohibition from applying again and again. Some are subsequently accepted, in the same place, or in another place, and God works in these ways. Some are never accepted, and God works there too, mysteriously, powerfully, in ways that spiritual men and women come, eventually, to treasure.

Jim should continue to knock, and the best door for him, that of God's will, shall open. I pray that he does so.

In the mean time, these 'set-backs' and disappointments are tough to take, and Jim has my support and the prayers of many of us here. I earnestly hope he can set all things in God's hands and take comfort in his loving providing.

I would only caution my friends, and fellow-posters, not to simplify the events, or jump to conclusions, or offer recommendations that don't really address Jim's needs at the moment.

with prayerful support....

the unworthy,
Elias

Thank You, Father

I hesitate to add anything to what has been said here, except to say that I am personally touched by your struggle. As St. Paul writes to Timothy, "If any one aspires to the office of episkope, he desires a noble task," (1 Timothy 3:1). No doubt your aspiration to the office of presbyter is a gift from God. If it is in fact a calling, the Scriptures teach us that it is "without repentance" - God will not turn from His path for you.

With that said, the temptation to "seize" the vocation through various means will always be with you. Suggestions to go to Europe or the Middle East - or even to an Orthodox jurisdiction - are probably well intentioned. I would urge caution, if only because as Christians we believe nothing happens apart from the will of God, and perhaps there is great spiritual benefit to be gained in your (temporary ?) status. This is not just a suggestion to turn lemons into lemonade, but to realize that:

1. You are already a priest, according to the mystery of your chrismation in Christ. The order of presbyter is only one means, albeit an important and distinct one, of participation in the priesthood of Christ. It is significant that the word "priest" in the NT is only used in reference to priests of the OT, pagan priests, Jesus's High Priesthood and the priesthood of the baptized. Our use of the word "priest" in an exclusive way for the ministry of presbyter is unfortunate. I would encourage you to use this as an opportunity to focus your spiritual energies on living your baptismal priesthood more fully - in your work, family and parish life. All subsequent apostolic ministry begins with Baptism and flows from the Eucharist, so seek to tap more deeply into the spiritual energies that are available to you through these mysteries of Christ's redemption.

2. Bishops, as successors to the apostles, are given the means to discern vocation. I believe that it is a gift of the Holy Spirit, since their principal roles as overseers of the ecclesia are to celebrate the Eucharist (which they often delegate to the presbyters), to preach the Word and ordain the leadership within the local church, recapitulating the mystery of Pentecost for the whole Body. The recommendation to pursue the diaconate should not be regarded lightly. It too is a "priestly" calling, albeit not sacerdotal, but kenotic. Remember - the Bishop, who symbolizes the Father, has two hands: the presbyters and the deacons, just as the Father has "two hands" according to Irenaeus: the Son and the Holy Spirit. The presbyter and the deacon all participate in the charism of the bishop's oversight, but in distinct ways. Take comfort in the Bishop's words that you may be called to apostolic ministry through the diaconate. It is not a consolation prize, but a holy calling and a vital one in the renewal of our church. The deacon is principally the bishop's servant ("eyes, ears and hands") and an animator of the laity's diakonia in the church and the marketplace.

As Father Elias has already said, there are many examples of vocations that encounter obstacles. Salvation history is also replete with examples of those who sought to "help the Lord's will" by taking matters into their own hands. The results were usually disastrous for generations. Sarah's bright idea about recommending her slave girl, Hagar the Egyptian, to her husband Abraham comes to mind. And not to put too fine a point on things, but the rebellion and death of Korah, Dathan and Abiram after they tried to seize the priesthood is a warning that transcends time and covenants (Numbers 16:1-40). I am not posting this to disparage anyone for recommending Europe or the Middle East, but to recognize that sometimes the devil can make the most of our best intentions and desires to lead us to a place where we might be outside the will of God. Having a good spiritual father is the best solution for discernment of this or any other question of calling.

My apologies for the sermonizing - my only desire was to reach out as a brother and offer an alternative perpective.

God bless you on your way!

Yours in Christ,

Gordo

This is just one more reason why our church should rejoin the ORTHODOX church. No more bishops afraid to be Eastern who would offend the wrong person, No more "Oh, your Byzantine,not regular Catholic" comments like i hear all the time. No more First Communion,Stations of the Cross, no more rosarys, no churches without Iconostases,recited Liturgies,et al. ENOUGH OF THIS LATIN ATTITUDE!!!! People (including some of the clergy) need to be educated on what an Eastern Christian is. To me it means being EXACTLY like the Orthodox only we mention Benedict XVI in the Liturgy.

Haven't we learned anything in 400 plus years of Unia? We're like 80% there. I think it may take another 400 plus years to get all the way there.

Ok, I'm ready for the backlash. Any takers?

None from me, Etnick. I agree 100%. After listening to everyone whine about the
"Orthodox Christians" line in the Liturgy, I've come to the conclusion that our hold-up is the state of Pennsylvania. Anytime I hear remarks that deny who we really are, they've come from someone over the Ohio state line. If you can figure out how do deal with our PA brethern, we may have the situation licked!

IMHO,
Cathy

Can I please ask that you guys refrain from using American shorthand in your postings. This Forum is accessed by others outside North America, who can't follow the thread of postings if you do this.

ICXC
NIKA

...beginning with the full restoration of minor orders. Just because the Latins made the mistake of eliminating theirs (or rather "collapsing" them into two "ministries" - acolyte and lector) doesn't mean we need to make the same one ourselves.

The last time I checked, Pope Paul VI's promulgation was specific to the Latin Church, not to ours.

Build up the "leadership pipeline" with vocations to minor orders and the diaconate and then in short order pursue a full return to married and celibate men as presbyters...so long as we do not suffer the loss of the diaconate to the "omniverous priesthood" as one author calls it!

Etnick - I agree with you in many ways - so long as we can find a way to "rejoin" the Orthodox Church without leaving communion with the Church of Rome.

Look - I think we are dealing with whole generations of individuals - including some presbyters - who are uncatechized in the fullness of our Eastern traditions. There is this traditional "Greek Catholic" ethos and mindset that appears to be prominent in some parts of Pennsylvania for some reason, but is by no means limited to that geography. They call the Divine Liturgy the "Byzantine Mass" (last I heard there was no "Ite missa est" in our worship...), they incorporate Latin devotions such as the Stations, pray the Rosary before "Byzantine Mass", mention the "Sacred Heart" in the worship, have the church full of statues, etc etc. All of this is completely unnecessary. My personal aspiration is to follow the example of St. Josaphat and immerse myself in the Orthodox liturgical books, writings and life of our church to discover and experience our rich theological and spiritual heritage, while remaining in full communion with my bishop who is in full communion with the metropolitan archbishop, who is in full communion with the bishop of Rome.

The distance between "Greek Catholic" and "Orthodox Catholic" can be light years! But it does not have to be that way...

Gordo, who just can't keep himself from posting

Nice to see that you still do post Gordo. The interestign thing is the with the Latins the ministry of Lector has not taken off at all while it is restricted to men. Very few have got have been instituted as Lectors. I know an Acolyte who is now since he went east refered to as a Subdeacon and he keeps telling me he is one of the few instituted Lectors in the land.

There needs to be more done in creating vast armies of Subdeacons.

ICXC
NIKA

We could follow the Copts and ordain all young boys subdeacons when the chrism is barely dry!

I just had a conversation with my spiritual father about this. He lived in Egypt for over 12 years. Even though the Copts aren't very large, ever parish has an army of subdeacons!

Your points are interesting, though. It appears that the ministry of acolyte and lector are reserved in the Latin Church exclusively for deacon and presbyter candidates. There are no lines for laymen to join the "ranks" of these ministries, to be sure.

In our tradition, the subdeacon and the acolyte are extensions of the deacon's ministry (not the presbyter, as is sometimes thought). Every parish, depending on its size, should have at least three or four deacons to every one presbyter. And every deacon should have at least ONE subdeacon and one or two acolytes. Some may think that adds up to a crowded altar. My response?

SO WHAT! GET USED TO IT! HEAVEN IS CROWDED and the reference to MYRIAD OF ANGELS is not just hyperbole!

I will never forget the marvellous experience I had at Nicholai-do in Tokyo, with the Orthodox Church of Japan. The bishop standing in the center of the church, the deacons and subdeacons (there were several) flying about like angelic hosts, the council of presbyters around the holy table and the laos - the people of God singing beautifully, bowing, crossing themselves. To me, there was no doubt that this was a catholic manifestation of the Church!

I think part of our VOCATION CRISIS is that we have a SHORTAGE OF BISHOPS! We need more of them - lots more! Preferably one per church...or at least major city! If you read Zizoulas, that is precisely the early model of ecclesia before the whole "parish" movement fundamentally shifted the focus away from the bishop to the presbyter (his delegate) as the main celebrant of the Eucharist. Then the opportunity to multiply the effect of Pentecost on our ecclesia will help lead to our renewal. Ever wonder why the early church sent BISHOPS to lead missionary expeditions? (St. Patrick comes to mind...) They are the "apostles" meaning "one who is sent!" (not just seated!) We need more missionary bishops all over the world, if you read the stats on the total Christian population...including here in the US.

And bishops found churches. (whether its 20 people or 200!)

So, now that we've solved the issue...when can we sing our Axios?

Gordo

We need to free up the Subdiaconate as the ministry of serving, as done by adult men and assisted by boys. Add to that at least 2-3 deacons per parish. Well thats my wish list. I say bring back fluttering Subdeacons and hovering Deacons.

ICXC
NIKA

I have heard recently that those who have changed rites under the diocese to diocese process in the Catholic Church, have an extra added to their paperwork that reads 'not to be ordained' . I have heard that this is to stop men from transfering from the Latin Rite, so as to be married and ordained. This must be something very recent, as I have never heard of this before.

ICXC
NIKA

Hmmmm, sounds like they would force such a candidate to move to an Orthodox juridiction if they put such a clause on the paperwork. However, for other reasons that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, they probably will still let Roman Catholic Priests change to Byzantine Catholic Priests, so why not let Latin laymen become Byzantine laymen and then move on to Ordination. If such a clause does exist, my guess is that it isn't to stop juridiction jumping and Ordination, but rather to stop men with unsuitable backrounds from being Ordained. For example, if a Roman Catholic was married, widowed, and remarried and then changed Catholic Churches, he would not be Ordainable. (In any Catholic or Orthodox Church due to the remarriage)