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When you folks find that perfect country in which to live, be it holy Russia, holy Greece, or the holy U.S, let me know. I haven't found anything particularly holy about any earthly society or country, be it Orthodox, Catholic, or pagan.

This week, I have read about the "knockout" game in Philadelphia, conditions in Russia mentioned above, and folks so economically desperate in Greece they are deliberately infecting themselves with HIV to get a government subsidy. There is no heaven on earth anywhere that I know of. It always amazes me that the greatest fans and proponents of other countries seem to be people who choose not to live there. Is there a message here? So pray, then pray some more for everyone, everywhere.

I don't think that anyone disagrees with your thoughts! I certainly don't disagree.

The pity is that so many of us felt that this country was about as perfect as you could get until fairly recently.

My grandparents who came to this country thought, like so many in their generation, that this was the best country on earth. It still is pretty good, but our morality and spirituality are on the decline, and with it, so is our greatness.

We applaud Putin because we want to hear our own President's talk like that. They used to. They don't anymore.

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. Citizens of any country love their country, and that is as it should be. There is a special, unique quality and flavor to each culture, its people, and its history.

One real advantage to our presidents is that their terms do end. Maybe we will get a great leader next time. We can hope.

Where are all the starry eyed ROCOR people when it comes to this topic?

Although I agree with some of what Stuart says I don't agree with his arm chair general style tactics.

Bravo, Mr. Administrator, bravo!

While I don't like the "laugh until you pee" part in Stuart's post, (although I'm guilty of worse language myself, as you well know), both you and he take a very realistic view of Putin and life in Russia which has nothing to do with Orthodox Christian spirituality.

I myself took offence (and then went into one of my characteristic pouts, cancelling my avatar) at Alice's comment about how my own "hatred of Putin" clouded my judgement.

If we don't have an argument on a topic, we shouldn't try to win it anyway by telling another "you are just blinded by your . . .whatever."

I understand Alice and I bear her no ill-will. It's just that I don't see that approach to be much different from that of Stuart's, whose views are not only well-researched and articulately presented, but who gets slammed for simply disagreeing with what appears to be the majority opinion in a given thread.

I've never known Stuart to be wrong on anything (I'm sure he's not infallible and he would be the first to issue a disclaimer to that effect). He is just a serious scholar and thinker. Again, I wish HE would write the UGCC Catechism and history of our Church.

I thank the Administrator as well for weighing in here with his usual balanced common sense and cool headedness.

That's something I've always admired about the Administrator but have never been able to learn myself.

John is "da man!"

And it is heartening to see Alice take positions on these subjects that she normally has not. She is too formidable an opponent for me - during my last altercation with her, I felt that I had the you-know-what beaten out of me!

Good for you, Alice, good for you!

Alex

Recluse,

Putin has never discussed what he personally believes and has even affirmed that it is no one's business.

The only time he let something go in that regard was with respect to his idea that Lenin's body is akin to the relics of the Kievan Caves Saints.

Politicians everywhere are known for there ability to manipulate religion for their own ends as a mechanism for social control, to inspire loyalty to the state and their own person and to obtain the approval of important sources of political support among the people.

The Administrator presents his own read on the subject, which differs from my own, but which is just as legitimate as yours.

Why is it that whenever someone criticizes Putin (and presumeably someone else like him) that you (and others) cry foul from the get-go and make it seem as if a sacrilege has been committed?

Do all Orthodox Christians sing Putin's praises?

The utilitarian aspect of a politician's affirmation of religion is what is presented here by the Administrator. You can certainly disagree with that. But it is a perfectly valid position to take.

As for Putin's behaviour toward Ukraine - he is nothing short of an international bully and gangster. And, yes, he wears a cross and lights candles in churches . . .

Alex

So you say he is not an Orthodox Christian? He really does not oppose issues such as gay "marriage" and abortion?
But you do not read hearts.
Yes.
I have not cried foul...or sacrilege. Why are you making things up? I only expect charitable conversation. I don't think that I have been uncharitable and if I have....I beg forgiveness.
I doubt that they all do. But I know that many of the Orthodox in Syria are very grateful for his support right now.
And I do.
Careful with that beam in your eye.

Starry eyed? Why do you use such an adjective?

I think I quoted Stuart on that one. I liked it. I remember before 2006 when a priest would visit Russia they would come back starry eyed. It was as if over night on the synod list priest would change their position and their interpretation of such luminaries as Met Philaret, a saint in our church. Who by the way reposed on the 21 of this month in 1985.

St Philaret pray for us!

I withdraw this post because it offends Recluse.

I apologise to Recluse and to Alice. I am not worthy of being on this Forum.

Alex

Delete post.

Blessed Nativity Fast to everyone!

Recluse,

May the Lord bless you and your entire holy family. Good night.

Alex

I was not trying to win any argument.

I was just *suggesting* (as I do to my mom when she gets riled up about Erdogan, or my husband when he gets riled up about Obama), that sometimes our intense dislike and mistrust of someone's political policies clouds our ability to see any good whatsoever in them or those around them.

If I was incorrect or presumptuous, or if I sounded offensive, again I ask you to forgive me. It was not my intention.


I never disputed Stuart's research or knowledge about Russia. Where are people coming up with these ideas?!

Throughout this thread, words and sentiments are being attributed to Recluse and me that we never said.



I also don't publically *belittle* Stuart when he is wrong (and yes, he has been wrong, as he once was in something he said about Greece a few years ago) by saying that "I showed the post to my spouse and we laughed so hard that we almost peed".

I found that sarcasm to be unnecessary, to say the least. That is certainly not a becoming way to correct a person. But hey, maybe that is only my opinion.

I wish him and everyone a happy and blessed Thanksgiving to God for our wonderful country and all our blessings. Now, I have some cooking to do for the feast tomorrow.

Dear Alice,

I think I conflated responses to various posts or my interpretation of them - what you mention above wasn't directed at you, but it certainly came across that way.

I ask for your pardon and forgiveness and wish you and all a very happy (American) Thanksgiving this weekend.

Alex