www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Help keep Agia Sophia from becoming a mosque!

ya right. and eastern dreamer and tenderized computer.

z

slav:

Interesting that a Penn and a Californian are talkin Orthodoxy.

I am very independent follower of Billy Graham) after the separation from the Baptist Church, which incidentally was the first Church followers of Jesus by John The Baptist.
Jesus upon his resurrection founded the Church for it is He that is the Rock, not Peter. Christ gave transmission of the Word to the Apostles including Mary Magdalens. Since the Romans broke-up Judea and destroyed the Temple, the Church scattered all over the world. Christ came onto Paul for him to take the piece of the Church in the Roman World and give the Word to the Gentile. James debated this with Peter and decided to give the Church to Paul and his Gentile followers. The Pauline's struggled under the Romans until Constantine the Great at Saxa Rubra. Then the Edict of Milan virtually making the Pauline's the State Church. Constantine moves his "Pauline Church" to Constantinople around 325AD but the majority of the church is still scattered throughout Africa, Armenia, Persia, and along the ancient trade routes.

The Paulines are filled with dogma, sacraments ... and Constantine and future Emperors consolidates them by hiring and firing the various Bishops and called them universals Administered by bureaucrats of the Catholic Orthodoxy. Then in 1054 the Western Catholic split. Both form into Politicos and not a Church.

In the mean time the Word was taken by the splinter Churches some as the Ana-Baptists in Switzerland and others in England. Those groups were driven out by the Western Catholic Crusaders and puppets during the inquisitions, but the Word grew around the world with migrations of Armenia, England Africa, India and elsewhere.

Anyone can become a Christian by believing that the One God the creator of everything from nothing, as well as Christ the Son of God; are whom they say they are. One is saved to go onto everlasting directly thru them, Church is unnecessary.

z

[Linked Image]

Wow. A novel take on reality. First time I or anyone else heard that the Baptist Church was the original Church. You do realize that you are spouting heresy?

You mustn't be a Baptist. No heresy here. JUST THE WORD.
So where exactly is the third Rome , Penn ???

z

You obviously got on the wrong forum. Your arguments have been refuted a billion times in a billion places. It must have been hard on those Baptists for the first three hundred years before there was a written version of Bible. Of course, the fact that most of them could not read would have been a bit of a problem as well. But, of course, they were probably channeling a version of the King James Bible, the only real bible for fundamentalists like you.

By the way, the third Rome is Moscow.

You also might want to read the instructions for posters. This forum is about Eastern Christianity and the petty fights among Protestants are not of interest here.

Why do you care if it was a mosque or a Church?? Who are you?

Do you know the History of this building?

This is the very building that the excommunication happened between the East & West.

Your pope went off and sent an emissary to excommunicate the patriarch of constantinople (over his non acceptance and insubordination into accepting the Filoque Dogma).

The emissary walks in and places the Bull of Excommunication on the Altar - During the Holy Liturgy. He then walks off.

Now 1000 years later, as a Catholic, you are concerned it is becoming a Mosque??!!

Ummm..zarastra, I don't get the point of your post above.

As for this:


According to that logic, Hitler, who believed in God and Christ is SAVED and not in hell!

You see, this concept of 'saved' is skewed...we must be in a constant process of renewal and repentence to attain the Kingdom of God. If it were enough to believe, have a little spiritual awakening one day, claim that we are now 'saved' and then continue our lives without a thought of ongoing repentence, then the holy Saints will be sharing Heaven with the likes of Hitler and Stalin and others of that ilk. I don't think so...

On the other hand, being 'born again of the Spirit' is a necessary beginning to the true Christian path the Church sets out for us through the sacraments--with its help, the ongoing process continues throughout life.

I don't think that the venerable Pastor Billy Graham, who you mentioned, would disagree. His favorite church of attendance was the Anglican church, and he told everyone to go to their own churches after their 'born again' experience.

There is a difference between the concept of 'saved' as many Protestants believe, and 'born again', which an equal amount of Protestants believe. The ancient Orthodox church can agree with 'born again' of water (infant baptism) and 'born again' of spirit (repentance and ongoing sacraments-confession, Holy Communion, etc.), but *not* the concept of 'saved'.

Are we 'saved'? Our humble answer would be, 'only God knows, and if we will be, it will be by His grace and mercy, but, in the meantime, we will continuously strive to be'.

We, in the RC and EO churches are not presumptious to our eternal state.

hello jim,

I probably am not long here if Christianity slush is the underlying premise of discussions. I am mostly interested in the Byzantines here.

I use the NIV ver of the bible. It is the most credited to be un biased and translated from the originals.

Fundamentalists are OK but they know zip about the Phenomenal Byzantines.

Holy Cow, ..... Moscow the new new Rome?? Is there a "New Constantine The Great" in our future to drag it there ? He/She better hurry up, the Messiah is coming soon.

You need to put your glasses on. the Marquee says "THE BYZANTINE FORUM "

z

zarastra,

No offense, but you are not very clear on what you are trying to say, and what your point is, in many posts.

Alice,
Moderator

hello alice:

Ummm..zarastra, I don't get the point of your post above.

As for this:

z: Quote:
Anyone can become a Christian by believing that the One God the creator of everything from nothing, as well as Christ the Son of God; are whom they say they are. One is saved to go onto everlasting directly thru them, Church is unnecessary. z .... unquote

alice: According to that logic, Hitler, who believed in God and Christ is SAVED and not in hell!

z: No NO NO, you read me upside down. the Hitlers, Evils ...et. didn't believe in Christ or his teachings. all lieing impostors likened to this are to be tossed into the fireiry river to turn their evil back to nothing. It is impossible to think that Hitler and others would believe that Jesus was a Christ and do those thing. They are to be severely destroyed because God knows their true beliefs and hates the evil impostor. The key here is "sincerely believe " meaning that you stake your whole life on the life and teachings of Christ as well as God. Merely executing Satan's will then coming to God on your deathbed will get you nothing at Judgment.

One is Saved to go onto everlasting by being a "sincere" believer in both God and Christ .

John 3;16 For God so loved(V) the world that he gave(W) his one and only Son,(X) that whoever believes(Y) in him shall not perish but have eternal life.(Z) 17 For God did not send his Son into the world(AA) to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.(AB) 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned,(AC) but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.(AD)

Alice : You see, this concept of 'saved' is skewed...we must be in a constant process of renewal and repentence to attain the Kingdom of God. If it were enough to believe, have a little spiritual awakening one day, claim that we are now 'saved' and then continue our lives without a thought of ongoing repentence, then the holy Saints "will" be sharing Heaven with the likes of Hitler and Stalin and others of that ilk. I don't think so...

z: You are sooooooo correct Alice. may God bless . Sincerely believe is critical here and that you have personally convinced GOD.

z : Born Again and Again .... is the public awareness of your "Sincere" beliefs in both God and Christ. I believe in total baptismal emersion in a river conducted by your best friends or Parents.

z: Billy Graham is one of my mentors so I see the great gaps in the way Easterners worship. What a thrill it would be to have a Billy Graham Crusade in Haiga Sofia with music by the Specs.
----

Are you saved?? I am and plan to stay in the good grace of both God and Christ.

zarastra

I don't understand your quote sys yet.

please after a reread what I can help you thru this.

z

Thanos:

FYI, Alice is a member of the Orthodox Church, not the Catholic Church. Her parish is part of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in the united States and is under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

I would appreciate a more civil tone in your remarks to her and to others on this forum.

Your over-simplification of the Great Schism is something I usually hear from someone with no grasp of the many issues that lead up to it or continue to be part of it. I have to ask if you are really an Orthodox Christian.

Bob
Moderator

zarastra:

Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

May I suggest, with all Christian charity, that you go to the top of this section fo the forum and read the thread entitled "Who We Are."

I believe as was pointed out to you above that you've wandered into the wrong place on the internet. Your ignorance about the Christian East, Church History, and so many other topics seems to make you a poor fit for this forum. I don't understand why you came here--you say you have an interest in Byzantines--but to come here and post so many things that are so far from the experience of the Christian East leaves me wondering. Beyond that, so much of what you've posted is an insult to the many here in the Eastern Christian Churches who know well their history and spirituality. We are all here to learn from each other within the framework of Eastern Christianity--its history, its experience of the Lord in its life and worship, and its worldview.

I suggest you look carefully at the thumbnail version given by our brother, Slavipodvizhnik, above for that worldview.

Bob
Moderator

Hallauah to God and Christ.

Having said this It is no wonder that you live in a segregated simplistic of historical Cristian Monastics. You don't understand me because the world passed you by and you can't pass the Word to another Generation. It is sad that this in a "Retrieve the Haigia Sofia" thread whose purpose is to invite the Turks to not make it a Mosque. YOU likened to other relics, to get the cathedral and lock the door to real Christianity even to Christ. My Christian views were made to enlighten you not to enrage. I have said nothing to insult you, Catholicism nor Christianity in general. I came to find the Phenomenal Byzantines and preceded that I know little of Eastern's who happen to be in the USA. To chide me without a hint of which bothers you is the stir of the Inquisition and belongs in the Protestants spittoon.