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Theist Gal:

That is an excellent article. Thanks for posting the link.

Jason

Regarding Sigismundo Malatesta: I originally saw a book about Hell by a secular historian in which it listed this story about a man so wicked that the Pope "canonized" him into hell... while he was still alive!

I remembered it after reading one of the above posts. I just posted it as a humorous aside. I think that the Pope at that time did it as a poitical thing and it actually had no theological meaning. I could be wrong, Malatesta could be in hell... I hope not.

I think it is an unwritten belief that Judas Iscariot is in hell, and a few others about whom it is assumed that they are also in hell. Dante's poetry notwithstanding.

Sorry for the tangent.

Isn't he sainted in some Orthodox circles? I thought I had heard that he repented in one tradition or another. Wasn't there a recent thread that talked about this?

I would be more than happy for universalism to be true. I lean that way myself. But, if Judas is in heaven, then what are we to make of this statement by Jesus?

"but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed, for it would have been better for him had he not been born"

Strong words. How would it have been better for him never to have been born if he is in heaven? Peace in Christ,

Joe

That, to me is one of the most troubling passages of Scripture. Especially when taken with the passage that states that Satan entered into Judas. If Satan entered him and he was thus posessed, how could he have been held responsible for his reprehensible actions? Yet we have the passage quoted above that it were better that he had never been born. Troubling stuff.

Jason

There is the theory that Judas allowed Satan to enter him and take possession. Remember that Judas complained about the precious oil that St. Mary Magdalene anoited Our Lord with, he said that it should have been sold instead and given to the poor. Then the Evangelist tells us that he really didn't care about the poor, Judas wanted the money for himself.

I think you are thinking about Pontius Pilate, who is revered by the Ethiopians.

Yes, this is a distinct possibility. Though I would think Judas would have had to come to a self conscious choice in the matter to be held fully responsible. Though I suppose it could be argued that because he cut a deal with the wicked sanhedrin he was cutting a deal with Satan himself. Perhaps he quite literally "sold his soul to the devil".

You are correct! Thanks.

But that was said *before* Judas betrayed Him, right? Isn't it possible it was said as a warning to Judas, to try and get him to rethink his plans? I'm sure that's exactly how he felt once he realized what he'd done. Doesn't negate the possibility that he repented enough to "make it" into heaven (I remember a slightly irreverent priest who told me he was sure that Judas had repented "on the way down"!).

I agree. *Shudder*

I myself have no doubt that Christ himself showers his compassion on upon all of his creation. If one can be moved to tears for the demons and dumb beasts, then perhaps we might in this thread show like compassion on Judas and pray for him, who while doubtless an �enemy of the truth� was still one of us � fallen and sinful and in need of great mercy and daily redemption.


~Isaac

Very beautifully said, Isaac!

I think you people have it all wrong. It is not God that is judging us, and keeping us from heaven, but rather we have not achieved the spiritual condition necessary for us to achieve the 'state' of heaven. :rolleyes:

As for baptism, I wondered about the purpose, after all it's only water. I came to the personal decision that every person is affected in their spiritual growth through the intent of others. If people have the loving intent of forwarding an infant towards 'theosis' through the sacrament of baptism, then they have a greater capacity towards achieving heaven than others. That they will achieve heaven in the end, is of course through their own will.

Of course if the intent is there without the sacrament, then it is probably the same thing as having been baptized. Now this love and faith emanating from within us is what gives us the power to open up the hearts of others towards 'theosis'. By this standard, we must consider that prayers not only will help those that have died, to achieve a higher level in their journey, but also gives us the power to save the world.

So in that context, if we were to pray for the conversion of the Muslims, then it would probably occur...according of course to the amount of people praying, etc., etc. I have heard said, that had it not been for the prayers of the monastics, the world would have ceased to exist.

So it all comes down to love and intent. It can change the world. As for people being possessed, I believe that there is voluntary possession and involuntary possession. The one's that we think of are usually involuntary possession, that occurs through witchcraft, curses, etc. But there is also voluntary possession.

Now to my knowledge, people such as Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, and others that have caused small as well as great evil to occur, have usually subjecated themselves to an evil entity. They are weak individuals, and through their weakness, have allowed themselves to become possessed. So the question is, who is worse? The one that has subjecated themselves to a demon and is controlled by that demon, or the person that commits harm or evil through their own volition?

Interesting question isn't it?

Zenovia

That's an interesting idea. How would you justify it in light of Scriptural passages that do seem to show God judging us - for example, in Matthew 25:31-46?