www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Respectful Dialogue on the Christian East and West

To All:

As I have been reading posts and dialogue in this forum I have noticed that not everyone is on the same page. I know that we should be free to say exactly what we want on this forum, but I really hope that this forum can be a place to work for a better future between the Christian East and West. The devil will always try to distract us from the goal of unity (based on Christian Charity and Truth). Let us cast the devil and his cronies out of this forum for good, and work to make the Christian East and West better for both.

We Catholics, whether Eastern or Western, need to show the Orthodox and Protestant contributors that mutual respect and unity is possible between the Eastern and Western Rites. Our Orthodox brethren, in a very special way, will be the ultimate judge on whether this union of West and East is possible again. Also, our protestant fellow contributors and brothers, who experience such divergence in theology, liturgy, and morality in the Protestant sectors need to see that a real unity of Faith and Church is possible, with mutual respect for non-essential differences in her practice. My dear Orthodox and Protestant brethren take no offence for singling you out, we are your brethren.

Let us now focus on the future in this thread, always aware that our Blessed Lord deserves our best. My hope for this thread is to explore possible ways to bring greater unity between the Christian East and West. Everybody should desire to participate.

Sean,

Let's try this again. No, we are not all on the same page. This is an Eastern Christian site - not an Eastern Catholic site, as has previously been explained to you and not all Eastern Christians agree on all issues, nor do all Eastern Catholics, nor do all Eastern Orthodox, nor do all Latin Catholics, nor do all Lutherans, nor do all much of anyone else. Lockstep thinking is out of fashion here.

Our membership is diverse and includes Orthodox, Catholics, and persons of other faiths, all of whom are well respected - and many of whom will have differing opinions on the same topic, even those who worship beneath the same dome. Our moderators include Eastern and Latin Catholics and Eastern Orthodox - the common thread among them, and all of our community, is a love for the Christian East.

You seem to equate debate with disrespect. Instead of lecturing us on internet decorum. let me suggest that you sit back, read this site, and come to a better understanding of whom we are and what we're all about before proceeding.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Irish Melkite:

The website and the forum are dedicated to Byzantine Catholicism; hence, "Byz(antine)Cath(olic).org." Every other part of the website is dedicated to Byzantine Catholicism and other Eastern Rites; there are more than just Greek or Byzantine, like Maronites or Chaldeans. They would not consider themselves Greek.

Your language towards me was pretty rude. Perhaps, you would like to rephrase your statement. You just proved that this thread is not your cup of tea. Why you are so angry, only God knows. I do not equate debate with disrespect, but on the web it is easy to offend others because we do not see them; thus, we must be more reserved in judgement and criticism, something I immediately felt was lacking.

Unfortunately, you did not read the introduction on the main site to the forum. Does not "www.byzcath/forums" help you to understand what this forum is for? Peace to you brother and may the blessings of God descend upon you.

Your unworthy brother in Christ:
Sean Forristal

P.S. Your reply would have been better sent as a private message.

<< sigh >>

Our Lady's Slave:

Why the sigh?

This is The Great Fast , believe it or not

Sean,

I have to admit that I'm having a hard time believing that you just had the temerity to suggest that I don't understand what this site or forum is for???

When this site went on-line, more than a decade ago, it had a definite Byzantine (Ruthenian) focus - thus, the name. It wasn't long before the focus broadened to embrace the entirety of Eastern/Oriental Christianity. The above quote appears as the footer on the site's front page and the same or similar wording on every site page.

Thinking it over, I'm comfortable saying that 16 of the 22 Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches and at least 10 different Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches are represented here by active members. As well, we've active Latin, Lutheran, and Anglican members, and probably some others whom I've overlooked.

Many years,

Neil

Irish Melkite:

Yes, I do have the temerity to recall to you the nature of this website. Here is extra information:

ByzCath.org is an unofficial site. We strive to provide an accurate presentation of Church Teachings. If you believe we have failed in this task please let us know.

As this site expands we hope to contribute to the “New Evangelization” of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The New Evangelization can only be effective if everyone sees that we Catholics can speak with Christian Charity to each other. One of the most important aspects of the New Evangelization is that it is "New." By searching for greater union and mutual understanding between the Christian West and East and their respective churches and patriarchates we can heal the long and mutually painful path set upon in A.D. 1054. Do you want to be a part of the New Evagelization, which looks to the future of a unification of Rome with all her sister churches, or do you want to keep criticizing me for this or that reason? This is your decision.

Your unworthy brother in Christ;
Sean Forristal

To All:

When I gave the title to this Thread I really meant Respectful Dialogue as Christians should have towards each other, free of overly passionate debate. My hope was that our intellects would be able to work together for a unification of hearts and minds Yes, we will have to examine the past to find ways to make the future better, but as Forgiveness Sunday taught, we must forgive first. Then satiated in the Living Water of Christ we can journey together to the Land flowing with milk and honey.

Growing up in the Roman Catholic Church is very difficult because we are attacked on all sides, especially by the secular media. One issue that is very important to Roman Catholics and a controversial one in modern times is mandatory priestly celibacy, which I know is not the custom in Eastern Catholicism. The Roman Catholic Church has allowed married clergy in the case of former Protestant and Anglican ministers who desire to become priests. Every time Rome allows these ordinations, there is an outcry in the secular media to end priestly celibacy in Roman Catholicism. Protestants have been attacking us for centuries on this issue. When an Eastern Catholic Married Priest enters in, the secular media has more fire for the fodder. Thus, these issues places the Western Church in an extremely difficult place, and any action of Rome is a true Catch 22. I thought that this topic would be interesting to discuss in this thread as it effects all of us.

God bless all of you.

Your unworthy brother in Christ;
Sean Forristal

Sean,

Your posts seem to presuppose that the Byzantine Forum is a Catholic Forum. It is not, and it does not claim to be.

Sean,

I'm the grandson of a married EC priest and am very familiar with the issues you raise.

No one will ever "end" priestly celibacy - there will always be celibate priests.

What Rome can think about ending, and that quite legitimately, is MANDATORY celibacy.

If the Latin Church felt that celibacy was a necessary part of the priesthood, then it would never have allowed for married priests from the Anglican, Lutheran, Polish National Catholic and Pentecostal and other communities.

And there is much to be gained from a married priesthood. Just as the secular press goes after Rome over mandatory priestly celibacy as the antidote for priestly abuse of minors, so too does the Vatican overly react to the issue of married priests as if this would dismantle the Church and the like.

The issue is really about what Christian value does mandatory priestly celibacy promote? Does everyone with a priestly vocation also have a vocation to celibacy?

Alex

The problem was summarized quite well about a decade ago by Msgr. John Essoff (sp?) of the Scranton Diocese, addressing a group of Lutheran clergy sympathetic to and supportive of the Great Tradition:

"The problem with my church is that we do not embrace the option of a married Presbyteriate. The problem with your church is that you do not embrace celibacy as an option for Presbyters." (not an exact quote)

The keywords are "mandatory" and "option".

To All:

Thank you Orthodox Catholic and Thomas the Seeker for finally ending the invective aimed at me. Now we can truly enter into dialogue on the issues and not badger one another. Ad multos annos for this thread.

Western Catholics understand mandatory priestly celibacy in a way that has not been really explained in the public sphere, largely due to reactionary criticism that keeps this issue on a merely sociological level. There is a deep theology in Western Catholicism concerning this issue that goes largely un-explained. I will try my best to describe this theology.

When a Transitional Deacon is ordained he makes a promise, not a vow, to celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom of God. This promise prepares him to receive Ordination to the Priesthood, in many ways this promise is seen as an "Engagement" period withe the Church. When the man is ordained, he receives an indelable mark on his soul and in some ways makes him an "Alter Christus," or another Christ in union with Christ the head. The idelable mark configures the priest to Christ the Head of the Body, that is the Church. Also, when a priest is ordained he, in union with Christ, has a marriage bond with the church; no longer is the man free to marry (I understand that if an Eastern Catholic Priest is not married prior to ordination, he is not free to marry in the future, but correct me if I am wrong). This marriage bond with the Mystical Body of Christ is taken very seriously by Western Catholic Priests, this is the first important theological concept of the Western Catholic Priesthood.

Next, is its Scriptural basis. Saint Peter left his marriage, or maybe his wife was deceased, when he left the boat to follow Christ. Christ told his Apostles, "Anyone who has left father or mother, wife or husband, son or daughter for my sake will be repaid a hundred fold" (Matthew). Surely Christ would not support a person leaving their marital or parental duties, but rather is speaking of those who give up the future prospect of them. We do not know what happened to St. Peter's wife, but if she was alive, she probably gained company with other women following Christ, while remaining somewhat apart from her husband. Thus, there is an Apostolic and Scriptural basis for celibacy.

Finally, in the West there became a necessity to make celibacy mandatory. Since most of the West remained un-Evangelized when Constantine translated the capitol to Byzantium, priests needed to be missionaries to go to very dangerous places. If these priests were married then the priests mission would become complicated. Another practical reason for mandatory priestly celibacy in the West was to protect Church Property from being given over to the priest's family. A third practical reason for mandatory priestly celibacy was based on the fact that Western Priests had to move around based on the orders of the Bishop, the west did not want children to be up-rooted frequently, especially if the priest was gifted in preaching. And a fourth practical reason is that in the West, most bishops come from the dioceasn priesthood, and the West desires to ensure that every priest remain a viable candidate. Yes, mandatory celibacy in the West is a sacrifice, but many saints were able to do it very well.

In regards to modern sexuality, celibacy stands in opposition to many people's belief that sex is necessary for a healthy life. The Msgr. who was quoted I believe was suspended for his activities against mandatory priestly celibacy. This is the practice of the West as best I can describe it.

God bless all of you here in the forum as well as your families!

Sean

Let me be blunt

Many of us are quite familiar with the fact that Latin Catholic Deacons at their Ordination make promises of celibacy. We don't need this explained to us .

I'm really getting a tad tired of the lectures from you about this type of thing.

We don't need to be told of what many see, as the historical reason for this.

We also remember that John Paul II of blessed memory told us , in the East , that we should be faithful to our roots - and this we strive to do.

I really do not understand your object in subscribing to this Forum - if it's to tell us that you are Bi-ritual - you've done that and there ain't such a critter either.

You are a Latin Catholic who is familiar with our Churches - to an extent. I'm a Greek Catholic who is familiar , very , with the Latin Church but I don't try and get them to see that my praxis is superior to theirs.

Here we all get along well. Despite what you seem to believe we don't fight among ourselves , nor do we believe that the devil is here in this Forum causing non-existent problems of misunderstanding among us .

Tomorrow you enter Lent - 40 days of preparation for the great Feast of the Resurrection of Christ . May this period be a time of spiritual growth for you .

If I have hurt you in any way by my words I ask your pardon and forgiveness.

Please pray for me a great sinner.

Dear Our Lady's slave:

In no way have you offended me, your replies have always been sincere and charitable. I like reading your comments and have learned much from you. For some reason anything I write in this forum only provokes ire, disdain, and antipathy. None of these reactions did I intend to provoke.

The reason I joined this forum was to learn more about Eastern Catholicism (which one of my spiritual directors said sincerely that I should change rites and he has a Doctorate in Theology from Rome) and to see how Eastern Catholics have been doing in a very difficult time in the Universal Church. In other words, I wanted this forum to be a part of my contribution to the New Evangelization. My long posts are not meant to be lectures or sermons, but to contribute to the dialogue in this forum. If I have written something that is already known and understood then it is because I am a philosopher and a classicist, which makes me prone to being overly cautious of incomplete thinking, namely I try to be as complete and clear as possible.

I am a bi-Ritual Altar Boy/Acolyte and this is the main reason I call myself a bi-Ritual Catholic, being familiar to both Rites. Whether I am a Latin or Eastern Catholic makes no difference to me, I am Catholic before anything else. Know that I do not feel at home in either Rite, which is due to a long and painful story and I will not go into it here.

Anyway, I hope this clears up my image in this forum. If anyone wants me to leave then I will be happy to leave. God bless you all and give you peace, my brethren in Christ.

Your unworthy brother in Christ;
Sean Forristal

OK Sean , now I understand a little more and now in your turn you need to learn a little more.

No-one is Bi-ritual - a priest ,if there is an accepted need for it, may be given Faculties to serve as a priest in both Eastern and Western Rites by both Bishops . A lazy way of describing this is to say he is Bi-ritual .

A Deacon may be given a blessing by his Bishop , again if there is an accepted need for it , to serve in both Rites.

A lay person , as I said earlier , may freely attend any service , and receive the Sacraments providing he is correctly prepared for their reception and there is no bar to reception . However there is no way that he is bi-ritual .

Your SD [ you have two - I would have thought that exceedingly unusual ? ] may have suggested you should apply for a change of Canonical Enrolment - but you are expected to attend regularly over some considerable time . During this time you should take a full part in the life of the parish. If you do not feel at home in either Eastern or Western parish then I really cannot see how you can become a real part of that parish .

By the way - I normally attend my own parish , but from time to time I attend Mass and again I attend Liturgy in Orthodox Churches when I'm unable to attend my own parish - however I certainly do not describe myself as tri-ritual or even bi-ritual . I'm neither of them - I'm a Greek Catholic.

May I humbly suggest now, that during this period , when many of us post less , you take the chance to read past threads and understand how we converse with each other.