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Sean,

In the interests of maintaining the spirit of the Great Fast as we Eastern Christians are wont observe it, I've stayed myself from commentary on your posts for about a week now. However, I can't continue to do so. In your mad rush to make us aware of your 'education' and 'knowledge', you've seen fit to publish on any number of topics, on each of which you've pontificated as if lecturing to a classroom of neophytes.

Despite (presumably) reading the postings of those whom you've chosen to engage, you've failed to take note of the tone, tenor, content, and caliber of those. It hasn't yet hit home with you that you're conversing in most instances with persons who, both clergy and laity, are very astute observers and participants in the Eastern Christian world - well-informed, well-educated individuals whose backgrounds are decades-deep in matters that to your intellect are as freshly-minted coinage. Your BA in Philosophy, together with whatever Theology coursework you've completed, has hardly prepared you to play in the major leagues.

If anyone here, other than yourself, is impressed by the depth of your reading or the erudition that you believe you possess, I've yet to be made aware of it. I had hoped that you might take to heart some of the early criticism but such doesn't seem to be the case. Perhaps we made a mistake when no one commented on the rather immature statement, made early on, that you were in process of designing a multi-ritual temple in which all would be welcome to serve the Divine Liturgy, each according to his own praxis. That, the kind of post to be expected from a wet-behind-the-ears youngster, was, quite frankly, a telling example of what was to come and we ought not to have ignored it.

Regardless of your pretensions and your protestations to the contrary, your knowledge and understanding of Eastern Christianity is book-learning (flawed and incomplete book-learning at that), which you've coupled with random attendance at a few Divine Liturgies and are seeking to parlay into having some meaningful standing in a community of persons whose members differ from you in that we live as Eastern Christians - many for their whole lives, others for decades more than you have had birthdays. And, I'm not suggesting that the youthful or those new to Eastern Christianity aren't welcome here - we have plenty of members who fit those descriptions and are, despite that, valued and contributing members of the community. Frankly, you are not contributing - you are rankling people by touting a line of thinking that is contrary to the entire spirit of the site and to Eastern Christianity.

It's really, truly, time that you sit back, listen, read, and learn. Your dismissive posting of Father Economos Roman as what you perceive to be extreme in his expressions - typical of Eastern US presbyters in your opinion - is an excellent example (one in many) of why you ought not to post in this forum, the 'commendations' of your Spiritual Director to the contrary. I feel confident in saying, with no fear of contradiction, that the likelihood of you ever discerning a vocation that will include being granted bi-ritual faculties is a pipe-dream. No Eastern hierarch, on becoming familiar with your thinking on matters Eastern would seriously countenance such a petition. You haven't a clue what being an Eastern Christian is all about and we're tiring, rather quickly, of being told by you how we should understand our own spirituality (to say nothing of the absolute, unmitigated chutzpah involved in telling Admins, Mods, and persons who have been members here for more than a decade, that we're ignorant of or misunderstand the nature and purpose of this site).

For your edification, the purpose of this site is to afford a place in which those of the Eastern and Oriental Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, and those not of those Churches but with an interest in and love of the East, can meet to educate and be educated regarding one another's faiths, spirituality, and praxis, to dialogue, discuss, and debate, and to pray for the reunion of our Churches in such time as the Holy Spirit sees fit to cause that to happen.

What this site is not about is to serve as a place in which those outside of our Communions are invited to lecture us on why what we do - the way we live our spiritual lives - ought to change so as to conform to that of the Latin Church. And that, quite frankly, appears to be your motivation in posting here. Might I suggest that your line of thought would be well-suited to any of several on-line, toe-the-Latin-line, sites - such as CAF. I rather suspect that your way of thinking would be welcomed there, where all things Eastern are, at the very least, suspect as not being quite in conformity.

Many years,

Neil

I suggest, rather, that as eastern Catholics we support fully the legitimate disciplines and stated charisms of the western Church, and that the western Church, in like manner, support and affirm (and allow unhindered) those of the East.

As we say à la Melkite, when someone says (or sings!) something particularly well, "Salam thimmak!" (Peace to your lips!)

What are you referring to Pater?

Apologia Mea

To All:

All of you in this forum are dear to me as all of you are my Christian brothers and sister. For all I always consider that you are being authentic and true as well as having good-will to all. This season is Great Lent, and known in the west as the Great Season of Grace, as some of you may already know. In the spirit of the season I would like to clarify myself to all of you and ask for your prayers.

While most college students were writing research papers on various secular topics, I dedicated two research papers to topics that were of religious nature. One was a comparative study on the Byzantine and Roman (OF) Liturgies. The other was on the History of Roman and Orthodox relations. Although, neither of them were exhaustive, they were both written out of my Love of the Faith and Eastern and Western Ecclesial Unity. Never, did I see an ounce of Protestantism in the East. Also, I did a presentation of the Coptic Church, both Catholic and Orthodox, which ran over time because I did not want to leave one iota unexplored. Much of my knowledge is "book" knowledge, but I hope a knowledge that tries to be fair, objective, and with love.

Yes, my writing is very academic, which sometimes comes across as lecturing, but this is who I am, and my intention was not to lecture. After writing over 1,000 pages in my college career on various subjects, I cannot help but to write in an academic way. Neither have I desired to "Wow" everyone with my knowledge nor to be an authoritative source. My way of writing is just academic.

Finally, I desire to be a friend to all of you. I have written many private messages to some of you because the reply demanded privacy. All of you I love; please, do not rush into judgement with me. I have been in the world of Catholic Apologetics for many years; thus, may be the reason that I come across strong.

May God bless all of you and yours during Great Lent!

Your unworthy brother in Christ;
Sean Forristal

Sean,

Do you realize that the takeaway most readers will get from your most recent post is that you are an academic and that we all are too stupid to understand your academic brilliance?

I put it to you that your writing here is not academic. It is often inaccurate, long and sometimes arrogant.

I will reaffirm all of what Neil said above.

I advise you again to express yourself in a style that is not offensive to the readers and posters, many of whom have forgotten more theology than you currently (and maybe ever will) know. Please understand clearly that this is not a request but a requirement.

John

If you would suffer me to do so, I would like to respond to this from the Orthodox perspective, since this is a canon from Trullo which I often see being derired without anybody ever really discussing some of the theological problems behind the debate over icons depicting Christ as a Lamb.

Firstly, I think that I should point out that the Orthodox can say that this is "historical" or "ancient," but not canonical, because, holding the canons of the Penthekte, we must find it not to be in accordance with the canons. The Penthekte at least argues along the lines that such an icon should not be produced, for reason that we are to prefer what has been revealed to its foreshadowing (that is to say, its argument concerning this icon is primarily didactic). This didactic argument itself is somewhat debatable, as whether it is better to teach one thing or another or to give emphasis to one valid teaching over another is ultimately a matter of prudence and subject to change from one situation to another.

But there exists a second problem for Orthodox Christians, regarding icons of Christ as a Lamb, that problem being that as beautiful as such paintings are, according to our theology behind iconography and the theological theme of 'image,' they ultimately cannot not be regarded as worthy of veneration. This is because the icons are not merely beautiful artworks meant to teach us things about God and the saints (that is to say, this argument is not didactic, like the argument made by the Penthekte Synod), but that they are the manifest presence of the one who is depicted, such that whatever honor is given to the icon is given to its archetype, and furthermore that it is the resemblance of the icon to its archetype which makes it an icon worthy of veneration as such (this is why, according to St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite, icons do not require any blessing). From the Orthodox perspective therefore, because depictions of Christ as a Lamb do not actually portray the image of Christ—which is to say that they do not portray Christ as man, as He truly exists—they therefore are not worthy of veneration.

To make perhaps a rather exaggerated example, imagine that there were an image of a clover, with the words "Saint Patrick" written above. This we cannot venerate, as it merely calls to mind the idea of St. Patrick by a symbol which is associated with him. But because it does not even depict a human form, it would not represent St. Patrick. In the same way, even if a Lamb be drawn with the crossed halo signifying divinity behind its head, such a painting for Orthodox Christians would not be worthy of veneration, unlike an icon depicting Christ as man.

Now, with that being said, I don't intend necessarily to convince anybody that they should cease using these icons (as this debate, like many, has gone on for ages, showing no signs of reaching a conclusive resolution), but only to explain that our position on this matter is a bit more than just some sort of anti-Latin chauvinism.

Cavaradossi:

I really like your description of the theology of icons. You made a really good point. Thank you for your description and info.

Your unworthy brother in Christ:
Sean Forristal

Administrator:

You have paid me another insult? No one else besides you and Irish Melkite (and he not all the time) seem to be offended by my writing, as I have received many posts towards me to the opposite. Supposing how much theology I know or "ever will know" was particularly unkind and un-Christian. Christ has this to say to all of us, "Do not attempt to pick the splinter out of your brothers eye, until you remove the plank in your own." Only God can judge how much theology I know or "ever will know." If this is what you call proper Administration then I can only pray for you. I forgive you for these insults, but I will not be your door mat anymore.

God bless you with His peace!

Your unworthy brother in Christ;
Sean Forristal

Sean

It's the Fast .

Please do stop accusing everyone and his /her grandfather and grandmother of insulting you.

We aren't , what we are trying to do in Latin terminology , I believe, so hopefully you will understand ( though it's not terminology with which I am familiar , or would use in normal practise) , is fraternal correction , done in love.

We accept you have your point of view and it may well be different from the one to which we hold. We respect that , but please please respect our point of view and stop trying to show us that yours is superior and therefore we are wrong.

Have a Blessed and spiritually fulfilling Fast

I, for one, would like to have a word with Sean's "Spiritual Director". Does he really encourage this incessant disturbing of the peace of souls during the Lenten Spring? Has he, in fact, read his numerous tendentious and sententious blogs and the downright paranoid reactions to forum members' views? If so, my advice would be RUN, do not walk, to get yourself another spiritual director, if not for your sake, at least for ours! With his every neurotic (psychotic?) episode the Amish approach seems indicated. Of course, we could always follow the more rigorousl path and add an anathema to the Synodicon of the Sunday of Orthodoxy. (Sean, before you vent your spleen please make sure your supply of Ritalin is at full complement and maximum strength!) [In the Fourth Tone].

Father , bless

Sean has , by his own admission , no fewer than 2 'Spiritual Directors ' !!

I personally would find that most confusing

But who are these people and do they know the foolishness they allegedly authorize? Perhaps he has one for each rite and the 'rite' hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing! Seriously, they bear a grave responsibility for Sean's pathetic delusions.

I don't like doing this but I must. Whatever else that has been ill-advised written by others, I find this the most offensive and repugnant and disturbing post of this thread.

Take misdirected zeal and channel it patiently to the truth.

Shame on you Ot'ets Nastoiatel', all the more because you're Ot'ets Nastoiatel'.

Surely not!