www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall What can be learnt from Ukraine's plight: An Article

Read excerpts from Hitler's 1939 "Greater Germany Reichstag" speech and then read Putin's recent comments.

Greater German Reichstag [germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org] http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=2289

Here is the background of that speech from the site.

With the dawning of the year 1939, Germany’s war preparations in the areas of armaments, economics, and diplomacy entered into their critical end phase. These preparations were also accompanied by intensified propaganda efforts. In this famous Reichstag speech, delivered on the 6th anniversary of his takeover of power, Hitler emphasizes his own wish for peace – one that apparently existed despite the Jews’ alleged international conspiracy against the German people. In advance, he presents the outbreak of war – which he himself would actually prompt a few months later – as Germany’s way of defending itself against Jewish aggression, and he promises retribution. It is unlikely that the Nazi regime had any concrete plans for the actual “annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe” at this time. But it must have been clear that war and the conquest of territory that it would entail in Eastern Europe, home to millions of Jews, would require the Nazis to formulate new policies toward the Jews.

Here is part of the excerpt:

" [...] On January 30, 1933, I moved into Wilhelmstraße, filled with the deepest concern for the future of my Volk [people]. Today – six years later – I am able to speak to the first Reichstag of Greater Germany! We, perhaps more than any other generation, can truly appreciate the full meaning of the pious expression: ‘What a change brought about by the grace of God!’

Six years were enough to achieve the dreams of centuries. One year to bring our people the enjoyment of that unity that so many generations strove for in vain. Today, as I see you assembled around me as representatives of our German Volk from all Gaue [regions] of the Reich, and know that among you are the newly elected men of the Ostmark [Austria] and the Sudetenland, I am once more overwhelmed by the powerful impressions of the events of a year in which the work of centuries was realized.

How much blood has been shed in vain for this goal! Over the course of more than a thousand years, how many millions of German men have consciously or unconsciously traveled down the bitter road toward a quick or painful death in the service of this goal! How many others were condemned to end their lives behind the walls of fortresses and prisons – lives they would have gladly given to Greater Germany! .......

[.....] This process lasted nearly 2,000 years, until scattered tribes became one Volk, countless lands and states one Reich. Now, the growth process of the German nation can be seen as having essentially come to an end. The Greater German Reich, however, encompasses the entire thousand-year life-struggle of our Volk.

Just as all streams of German blood flow into it, it unites in itself all past traditions, its symbols and banners and, above all, the great men of whom Germans of the past were once justly proud.

For no matter what camp they belonged to in their day, the bold dukes and great kings, the generals and mighty emperors, and around them the shining minds and heroes of the past, they were all merely instruments of providence in the process of creating a nation.

By embracing them with grateful reverence in this great Reich, the glorious richness of German history opens up to us. Let us thank Almighty God that he has blessed our generation and us to witness this time and this hour."

The whole thing is chilling but way it reflects the thinking behind the "Russian mir" cannot be ignored.

I agree, but I wonder how deeply a warmongering mentality really runs within the Russian Military command. That, and the oligarchs fear of being locked out of western money markets, would seem to serve as constraints on further wide ranging Russian expansionist ambitions. The dreadful lessons and costs of the "Great Patriotic War" are drilled into the Russian officer corps and, just as they were a counter-weight to Soviet ideologues in the Cold War, I suspect their successors have no appetite for a mutually destructive war

Time shall tell.

Deeper than you might think. The Russian military still retains the Soviet mindset that it is one of the three pillars of the state (the other two being the Party and the Secret Police). Since Gorbachev's perestroika, the military has seen its prestige and social position seriously downgraded. Under Putin, the military has been systematically starved for funding, and (with the exception of the Strategic Rocket Forces) has been reduced to a hollow shell (Most of the $70 billion Russian defense budget goes to strategic systems and to high-visibility, high-prestige items such as a stealth fighter, a new nuclear submarine and an aircraft carrier. On top of that, the Russian Ministry of Defense estimates that upwards of a fourth of the defense budget is either wasted or stolen each year).

Therefore, the Russian military has been itching for some time to show its relevance in Russian foreign policy, as well as to recoup its reputation, seriously undermined by its poor performance in Georgia back in 2008 (Putin makes it a habit to invade Orthodox countries, doesn't he?).

Whether ALL Russian generals think this way is not clear, but a large percentage of them do. Whether they will act on their desire is also uncertain. What is certain is they should be careful about what they wish--because they might get it.

My considered assessment at this point is Ukraine could easily become more of a tar baby for Russia than Afghanistan was in the 1980s, or Chechnya is today. Ukraine has large and capable armed forces, and nothing would unite the population more than a Russian invasion. Russia simply doesn't have enough combat-ready forces to guarantee a walkover in Ukraine, and a slogging match could rapidly lead to the collapse of the Russian army, which is not capable, at this time, of waging a sustained, high-intensity war.

And, if the army goes down, Putin will go with it.

That's not a true depiction of how the Soviet officer corps thought. In fact, right up to the final collapse of the USSR, the General Staff was planning for waging and winning a general war on the NATO Central Front. The Soviet military was fully convinced of its ability to fight and win even a nuclear war with the United States, and never signed on to the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD). In the brief window during which the Soviet military archives were open, enough documentation was copied and brought into the West to provide stunning insights into how they viewed events from their side of the hill. And what they proved more than anything was the fallacy of mirror imaging--do not assume that the adversary is thinking as you do, or holds the same hierarchy of values that you do.

There is no more Prussia.

I will defer to your area of expertise...a bit of Tom Clancyish mirror imaging on my part I suppose...

So... did their debacle, followed by our experience in the muck of Afghanistan, at all color the strategic thinking of the younger generation of post soviet officers in terms of fighting - not starting - a hot war on another nation's territory - those men who ought to be the equivalent of at least Brigadiers, full Colonels and Naval Captains by now?

The Russian military is top-heavy with superannuated generals and colonels. They don't have an "up-or-out" policy, and since senior rank carries with it a lot of juicy perks (including first shot at opportunities for graft and corruption, access to opulent quarters, and decent pay for not much work), they hang on for dear life. Attempts to reduce the size of the officer corps and retire large numbers of generals have all failed, because, while the army may not be able to conquer countries that shoot back, it's more than capable of overthrowing the government if it gets riled. So, Putin accepts military inefficiency and waste in order to appease senior military leaders who might become threats to the regime. He can't live with them, but he literally cannot live without them.

So the military and the Church are burdened with senior leadership of a generation long retired in the west? That explains much....

Putin may be pugnacious, cynical, tyrannical, autocratic, corrupt [fill in the blank], but he's not a Nazi; and Russia is not the Third Reich in intent, outlook, or most importantly in capability. Those comparisons and others being made by our political leaders I think are fairly lazy and myopic. It is of course also highly ironic. This [aljazeera.com] opinion piece on Al Jazeera I think summarizes why the comparison is a poorly thought out one.

I'm not sure what this pivot to Ukraine will mean to places where our more significant strategic interests lie. Certainly it is not looking good, and our attention seems to be shifting away, from the places where we have paid a substantial cost in blood and treasure. It can only re-affirm in my own mind that I have no idea what our actual foreign policy objectives are.

There are no foreign policy objectives....or economic objectives. This administration is flailing in the wind. Oh wait....I almost forgot....there are a few things they believe in....

Abortion
Gay "marriage"
Legal pot
ObamaCare

What is your point? We support Russia because we dislike Obama?

Abortion is legal and widespread in Russia despite government efforts to reduce it. http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9AO0VO20131125?irpc=932

Heath care delivery in Russia is problematic http://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF124/CF124.chap5.html

Drug abuse is as epidemic as in the west. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/12/russia-drug-abuse_n_1667786.html

Religious freedom is problematic there. http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/essays/religious-freedom-in-russia

A forum like this where widely, but respectful disagreement flourishes is increasingly rare and prosecutions based on opinion posts are increasingly common.

None of this is relevant however to the aspirations of Ukrainian citizens, is it?

My point? I'll say it again.

We have a very weak administration. They care about nothing except keeping abortion-on-demand-legal....championing gay "marriage"....legalizing pot......ramming ObamaCare down our throats....and the ever important green energy. There is no foreign policy....there is no economic policy. They cannot help Ukraine or oppose Russia. They are incompetent and impotent.


Huh?

^ Non sequitur. You're neither responsive to the original post or the related discussion.

Yeah....non sequitur...red herring....straw man....dicto simpliciter.......whatever. You don't need to respond to my posts if you don't like them.

But my point is related to what can be learnt from Ukraine's plight. America will not intervene and Putin plays Obama like a violin....that's one thing I learnt.

Dear Recluse,

I agree with you totally.

Alex