Forums26
Topics35,526
Posts417,646
Members6,178
|
Most Online4,112 Mar 25th, 2025
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569 Likes: 2
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569 Likes: 2 |
At St.Michael's we don't interpret the dictum (nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter) as imposing on us an early 20th century straightjacket. Rather, we follow the Synodal usage as it has developed in Russia (and elsewhere) since then but without introducing alien elements (anyone finding that offensive can lump it!) The calendar issue is a matter of 'settled law' for us: the parish has followed the Western Paschalion from its inception seventy-seven years ago. I'd be more comfortable always celebrating the feasts with the Mother Church, but I'm also aware that the whole calendar issue is a snare. As usual, Fr. Bob Taft, S.J. sheds his wonted brilliant light on this as on all other 'oriental' subjects. Hadn't we ready ourselves for the Great Canon?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431 |
Trampling on such is what started schisms in America. I realize there's much more that you've said (and that I could take issue with  ) besides this. But as I'm not posting very much, let me just say: I trust that you're just as bothered by the schisms from Orthodoxy, such as the Union of Brest, as you are by schisms from Catholicism. Right? 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1 |
Trampling on such is what started schisms in America. I realize there's much more that you've said (and that I could take issue with  ) besides this. But as I'm not posting very much, let me just say: I trust that you're just as bothered by the schisms from Orthodoxy, such as the Union of Brest, as you are by schisms from Catholicism. Right?  No - one-true-church claim - but I understand. We're not trying to break up the Orthodox communion but bring it all back.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431 |
No - one-true-church claim - but I understand. We're not trying to break up the Orthodox communion but bring it all back. And vice versa.  Having said that, I'm sure you can see why I take issue when you use phrases like "corporate reunion", as though you're pushing for something neutral when you really aren't.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1 |
No - one-true-church claim - but I understand. We're not trying to break up the Orthodox communion but bring it all back. And vice versa.  Having said that, I'm sure you can see why I take issue when you use phrases like "corporate reunion", as though you're pushing for something neutral when you really aren't. I think I understand you. The Orthodox party line is that becoming Catholic isn't a neutral solution. That said, by "corporate reunion" I'm making it clear that our goal is neither to turn Orthodox into Roman Riters (the ignorant rank-and-file Catholic view, if they think about the Orthodox at all) nor make them into copies of the Greek Catholics past or present. The calling of our восточные Greek Catholics such as the Russian Catholics, St. Elias in Brampton, and the Melkites is not to snag individual Orthodox or groups of Orthodox but to show all the Orthodox that becoming Catholic isn't the negative thing they fear it would be, a taking away of their traditions. That said, nor are we trying to hellenize, russify, or romanize the old latinized Greek Catholics and even former Greek Catholics (ACROD, for example).
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569 Likes: 2
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569 Likes: 2 |
The policy of St. Michael's Russian Catholic Chapel is not to 'receive' Orthodox into the Catholic Church. It is our conviction that the Orthodox Churches ARE the Catholic Church in the 'East' as the Catholic Church IS the Orthodox Church in the West. As Pope John Paul II wrote, "We are already in communion, though that communion is not yet perfect." Orthodox are welcome to join St. Michael's. They do so by the ordinary reception of the Holy Mysteries and not by a profession of faith.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1 |
The policy of St. Michael's Russian Catholic Chapel is not to 'receive' Orthodox into the Catholic Church. It is our conviction that the Orthodox Churches ARE the Catholic Church in the 'East' as the Catholic Church IS the Orthodox Church in the West. As Pope John Paul II wrote, "We are already in communion, though that communion is not yet perfect." Orthodox are welcome to join St. Michael's. They do so by the ordinary reception of the Holy Mysteries and not by a profession of faith. Sounds 90% like something I'd say. There is only one church, the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox are real particular churches. You have bishops, even a patriarch, only they happen not to be Catholic right now. Besides your own edification and salvation – and you can opine that Byzantine spirituality is better, only you have to believe other Catholic rites are fully Catholic – your witness is to how unity should work. Born Orthodox are estranged Catholics, not personally guilty of schism, so they get the benefit of the doubt. Which is how and why you venerate the post-schism Orthodox saints! Which is great. Not soliciting individual Orthodox, but, if they choose to come, welcoming them to the sacraments, quietly, as the late Archimandrite Serge (Keleher) said. Очень хорошо. Most Russian Catholics are non-Russians who love everything Russian Orthodox except schism.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,337 Likes: 24
Moderator Member
|
Moderator Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,337 Likes: 24 |
The policy of St. Michael's Russian Catholic Chapel is not to 'receive' Orthodox into the Catholic Church. It is our conviction that the Orthodox Churches ARE the Catholic Church in the 'East' as the Catholic Church IS the Orthodox Church in the West. As Pope John Paul II wrote, "We are already in communion, though that communion is not yet perfect." Orthodox are welcome to join St. Michael's. They do so by the ordinary reception of the Holy Mysteries and not by a profession of faith. Well Father that is wonderful except for the fact if an Orthodox receives the Mysteries from a Catholic priest they excommunicate themselves from the Orthodox Church, so your policy is meaningless from an Orthodox perspective.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1 |
The policy of St. Michael's Russian Catholic Chapel is not to 'receive' Orthodox into the Catholic Church. It is our conviction that the Orthodox Churches ARE the Catholic Church in the 'East' as the Catholic Church IS the Orthodox Church in the West. As Pope John Paul II wrote, "We are already in communion, though that communion is not yet perfect." Orthodox are welcome to join St. Michael's. They do so by the ordinary reception of the Holy Mysteries and not by a profession of faith. Well Father that is wonderful except for the fact if an Orthodox receives the Mysteries from a Catholic priest they excommunicate themselves from the Orthodox Church, so your policy is meaningless from an Orthodox perspective. That is the Orthodox perspective. In their case, receiving the Mysteries from a Catholic priest means becoming Catholic.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431 |
The policy of St. Michael's Russian Catholic Chapel is not to 'receive' Orthodox into the Catholic Church. It is our conviction that the Orthodox Churches ARE the Catholic Church in the 'East' as the Catholic Church IS the Orthodox Church in the West. As Pope John Paul II wrote, "We are already in communion, though that communion is not yet perfect." Orthodox are welcome to join St. Michael's. They do so by the ordinary reception of the Holy Mysteries and not by a profession of faith. I would question whether anyone can belong to a parish without being in full communion with it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520 Likes: 10
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520 Likes: 10 |
The policy of St. Michael's Russian Catholic Chapel is not to 'receive' Orthodox into the Catholic Church. It is our conviction that the Orthodox Churches ARE the Catholic Church in the 'East' as the Catholic Church IS the Orthodox Church in the West. As Pope John Paul II wrote, "We are already in communion, though that communion is not yet perfect." Orthodox are welcome to join St. Michael's. They do so by the ordinary reception of the Holy Mysteries and not by a profession of faith. Dear Father, With all due respect to you, I am very concerned by what you have posted. It sounds like a policy leading to indifferentism. It is our conviction that the Orthodox Churches ARE the Catholic Church in the 'East' as the Catholic Church IS the Orthodox Church in the West. Saint Michael's is not a large parish, does this conviction represent the thought of every single parishioner? How was this conviction reached? Was there a period of parish discernment? It may be the conviction of Saint Michael's parish, but it is not supported by the teaching of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. It has been Catholic teaching as reemphasized in Dominus Iesus [vatican.va] that there is only one Church of Christ and it subsists only and completely in the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Churches believe and teach the same thing about themselves. While it is common usage to refer to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as "sister churches", the CDF clarified [ vatican.va] that by saying it refers to particular Churches and not to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as a whole. Pope John Paul II wrote, "We are already in communion, though that communion is not yet perfect." Actually, he stated: "...between our Church and the venerable Orthodox Churches there exists already an almost total communion, though it is not yet perfect..." I am well aware that there are Eastern Catholic parishes which have an open communion policy with Orthodox Christians. (In fact, I was aware of one EC community that even gave the Holy Mysteries to Protestants!) From my own experience, this only leads to indifferentism and causes cracks within the parish: EC parishioners leave for other EC or Roman parishes believing their home parish has become "crypto-Orthodox" while the OC who attended also leave because it wasn't "Orthodox enough". The "grass-roots" approach to Christian unity by having an open Communion policy does not work. Orthodox are welcome to join St. Michael's. They do so by the ordinary reception of the Holy Mysteries and not by a profession of faith. The profession of faith is required as stated in the Code of Canons of Eastern Churches: Canon 897 - A member of the Christian faithful of an Eastern non-Catholic Church is to be received into the Catholic Church with only the profession of the Catholic faith, after doctrinal and spiritual preparation according to each one's condition. Since the parish is under the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of New York, has His Eminence approved this parish policy? In charity, I bring my concerns to your attention. GC
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1 |
With all due respect to you, I am very concerned by what you have posted. It sounds like a policy leading to indifferentism. It is our conviction that the Orthodox Churches ARE the Catholic Church in the 'East' as the Catholic Church IS the Orthodox Church in the West. ... It may be the conviction of Saint Michael's parish, but it is not supported by the teaching of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. It has been Catholic teaching as reemphasized in Dominus Iesus [vatican.va] that there is only one Church of Christ and it subsists only and completely in the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Churches believe and teach the same thing about themselves. While it is common usage to refer to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as "sister churches", the CDF clarified [ vatican.va] that by saying it refers to particular Churches and not to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as a whole. Correct. Thank you. That's what I was thinking. The branch theory in pure form ("both are equally the true church") is indifferentism. We believe in an attenuated version: there is only one true church but we recognize some other churches' valid sacraments, such as the Orthodox. That said, as many here know, in Syria, custom has overtaken the letter of the law. The Arab Byzantine Christian laity are one. Families identify as Orthodox or Melkite by custom but they intermarry (the wife always joins her husband's church, and neither side has a problem with it) and intercommune all the time. The only division is the clergy, who are very friendly with each other, don't serve in each other's churches. Fine with me. It's witness to the Catholic teaching that sacramentally we're the same. Also, Catholic instructions say never-Catholic Orthodox may receive, full stop. And, as has been mentioned, Father communing any never-Catholic Orthodox who come to St. Michael's (few do - true to its current mission, St. Michael's doesn't proselytize Russians now) is in fact receiving them into the Catholic Church by so doing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431 |
And, as has been mentioned, Father communing any never-Catholic Orthodox who come to St. Michael's (few do - true to its current mission, St. Michael's doesn't proselytize Russians now) is in fact receiving them into the Catholic Church by so doing. If that's true (I don't know the priest in question) then I trust that he only gives communion to an Orthodox if he/she explicitly consents to being received into the Catholic Church. Or am I missing something? 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1 |
I've been to St. Michael's several times. They don't lie. Their sign and bulletin, in English and Russian, say it's a Catholic church; they don't claim it's an Orthodox one even though its tradition is Orthodox and they love Orthodoxy.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431 |
Well, I doubt that anyone here thinks that they do. Nevertheless, I'm wondering whether they sow confusion by saying things like "joining the parish" without making it clear whether the Orthodox who does so is becoming Catholic or not.
|
|
|
|
|