0 members (),
1,087
guests, and
72
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,506
Posts417,454
Members6,150
|
Most Online3,380 Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8
Member
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 |
That one is a sacrament and one is not. One Christ made into a vehicle of sacramental grace. One is an ascetic discipline. But according to the fathers, marriage is a sacrament because God blessed the post-lapsarian reality of carnal desire and sexual intercourse for the propagation of the species, whereas celibacy is the natural state of man (i.e., most of the Fathers seemed to believe that there was no sexual intercourse before the fall). Celibacy requires no sacrament because it is how we are intended to be in the kingdom. I think that both marriage and monasticism are holy mysteries, and so I see no reason to denigrate one or the other (not that you are advocating doing that). After all, both are holy callings, each in its own way. That said, the monastic life does afford one the greater possibility of controlling the passions through the practice of prayer and ascesis and this no doubt is a great spiritual gift, but married life has its own rewards and it also requires a type of maturity and control through self-renunciation that is ordered to one's spouse and children. Both are sacred callings if they are lived for God.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 714 Likes: 5
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 714 Likes: 5 |
I do think that Roman Catholic theology may be more open to considering marriage an accommodation to depraved desires useful only for the propagation of children, Wouldn't satisfying depraved desires be more likely within a marriage that uses contraceptives? You are being too vague to give a useful reply.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915 |
I guess the thread has wandered; the issue of a married priesthood is of course distinct from the whole question of whether consecrated celibacy is "higher" than marriage. I guess my final word would be this: the "Latin" or "Western" or "Roman Catholic" theological tradition is not one bit less affirming of the goodness of marriage than the Eastern tradition. Marriage is good. Marriage is holy.
But that does not mean that the vocation of consecrated celibacy is not an objectively higher one. Forum posters who think that my mind is polluted by Latinitis or Frankoporosis really should read St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil on this subject. It's no offense to marriage to acknowledge that celibacy is a higher calling. To argue with Scripture and the saints on this subject is pretty bold.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978 |
I would suggest reading the excellent article by Fr. Maximos of HRM entitled Celibacy in Context [ firstthings.com] In it Fr. Maximos explaines the Eastern Churches call to all Christians to practice celibacy. Celibacy in Eastern Christianity is viewed primarily as a form of asceticism . Asceticism means, in essence, to live at the same time on earth and in heaven. It means to understand that everything we see in this life, everything we touch, taste, think, and feel, is in some way a revelation of the life to come. This means far more than an understanding that this life will come to an end and be replaced by another one. It means that the life we live right now and the life we will live for eternity are in some mysterious way one and the same. “The darkness is passing away,” says St. John, “and the true light is already shining” (1 John 2:8). For an ascetic, time reveals eternity. The ascetic thus wants to be freed from a merely human way of looking at time as a cycle of work and rest, life and death. Instead, the ascetic lives in time as though in the undying freedom of eternity. Therefore the ascetic prays. For an ascetic, food reveals the heavenly Feast. He is freed from a merely animal attraction to food and instead tastes only the spiritual promise that lies hidden inside earthly appetites. Therefore the ascetic fasts. For an ascetic, possessions reveal the many“mansioned Kingdom of Heaven. The ascetic is freed from the slavery to things by seeing in everything the Creator of all things. Therefore the ascetic gives alms. It is the same with sexuality. For an ascetic, all human relationships”even the sexual act itself”reveal divine love. Hidden beneath the surface of all smaller loves lies the immeasurable abyss of God’s love. The ascetic realizes that what other people give him by way of love finds its true and deeper meaning in the One who is the source of all love. Celibacy is the practical recognition of the reality that lies behind the image, of the prototype behind the icon. Human love without celibacy is at best mere sentiment, at worst a form of idolatry. In either case a merely human love is a closed system, like a river with no outlet to the sea. Face to face, two human beings in love become locked in an embrace of death. St. Gregory of Nyssa”himself a married man”writes of this in his treatise On Virginity : Whenever the husband looks at the beloved face, that moment the fear of separation accompanies the look . . . . Some day all this beauty will melt away and become as nothing, turned after all this show into noisome and unsightly bones, which wear no trace, no memorial, no remnant of that living bloom. The tragedy of love and death can only be overcome by the communion of humanity and divinity in Christ through the Holy Spirit. Only when two become three, when a couple becomes a trinity, the third being God, only then can the triumph of death be trampled down in the resurrection. “If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied, but in fact Christ has been raised from the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:19“20). [Who]then is called to be celibate? Simply put, every single Christian who is capable of love is called to discipline that love through the asceticism of celibacy. Just as every Christian is called to prayer, fasting, and almsgiving, so also every Christian is called to be celibate. Seen in its true context of asceticism, celibacy ceases to be a legal requirement for a small section of the Christian faithful and is revealed instead as an aspect of the universal vocation of all believers. What does this mean in practice? It means that we must no longer divide up the Church in our minds and separate the lay majority who are “allowed” to have sex under certain conditions and the clerical and religious minority who are “not allowed” to have sex at al[/i]l. The difference is nowhere near so stark. It is merely one of degree. For a legalistic mind, the division between celibate and non“celibate seems vast. [i] For an ascetical mind, however, the difference is negligible. Both the life of marriage and the life of celibacy are directed entirely toward God, and find a common meaning in Him. It may come as a surprise that I speak of a universal call to celibacy . This word has largely juridical associations, especially for Latin Catholics. Chastity is the term used in the more general sense to speak of the obligation of all Christians to use the gift of their sexuality in accordance with the divine will. Sexuality is conditioned in the East according to the principles of asceticism and mysticism, not legalism. It is precisely because the East does not think in juridical terms that I have felt free to apply to celibacy a very general meaning, for in the East there is no other way it can be understood. In this area East and West think quite differently. We must be wary of a facile assumption that what works in one tradition will automatically do so in the other. Looked at from the perspective of the Eastern Churches, celibacy has very little to do with the sacrament of Holy Orders. It has everything to do, however, with the sacrament of Holy Baptism. Through the latter we are born into a new kind of life, into citizenship in the Kingdom of God. We die to this world in Christ and rise again to eternal life. And in this resurrection we “neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30). Once again we see how it is that celibacy is part of the universal vocation of all Christians. Seen in the light of eternity, marriage is revealed as having no meaning in itself. Marriage is honorable not because it “joins two hearts as one,” nor because through it new life comes into the world, nor because it provides for a life of comfort and security. Marriage is worthy of reverence only because the two hearts fall into a sacramental embrace with a Third, only because the children born of the union are born again through baptism into a new life, only because together the couple apply to their comforts the balm of asceticism that gives their possessions true and sacramental meaning. Christian celibacy is marriage baptized. Christian celibacy is the revelation of the presence of the Kingdom of God in every relationship. It is the refusal to see other people as things to be used, even for the sake of romantic love. Celibacy means the willingness to see in sexuality not something merely animal, or simply useful or enjoyable, but instead something mystical. What then of those who commit themselves to radical celibacy? Herein lies the value of monasticism as a public vocation in the Church. Radical celibates present to all Christians flesh and blood tokens of the promise lying mystically beneath every authentic and holy relationship. Celibacy loses its value when it is seen as the preserve of an elite. It takes that value up again when it is seen as part of the common heritage of the entire Church, an asceticism shared by all the baptized. Here we come to another important insight within the pastoral tradition of Eastern Christianity. Celibacy is not primarily an individual calling. In the first place it is a vocation for the whole Church. Only secondarily is this vocation realized in individual lives. It follows that celibacy cannot be authentic if it is attempted individually. Celibacy can only be lived in a real way if it is seen as a shared way of life. For the Christian East, celibacy is lived corporately and within the context of communal asceticism. This is the real meaning behind the combined tradition of married clergy and celibate monastics in the Eastern Churches. The proper place for radical celibacy is a life of radical asceticism within that tradition of mutual support provided within the monastic milieu. For parish clergy, such radicalism is seen as out of place”neither improper nor impossible, but immensely difficult. This assessment in no way makes the life of the parish priest somehow inferior to that of the monk. Both are called to the same ascetical program, but in different degrees. The tradition simply recognizes that each must put this program into effect in the real world he inhabits. Each must rely on the other to supply that kind of holiness in the other’s own life that he cannot produce in his own. The Church needs both the holiness of marriage and the holiness of radical celibacy in equal measure. To underline this, the canonical tradition of the Eastern Churches even encourages married couples to regulate their sexual appetites by fasting from conjugal relations before Holy Communion, for example, and during Lent. This makes it clear in the most practical way imaginable that both monk and married person are engaged together in the same ascetical labor. For various historical reasons the insights of the Eastern Christian experience have been mostly ignored in the Western Church (and, consequently, by the Eastern Catholic Churches who have found themselves in the West). Celibacy in the West is not seen as related primarily to monasticism, but rather to priesthood in general. Nevertheless, it is possible for the West to draw some useful lessons from the Eastern viewpoint. Unless all Christians accept their vocation to live the asceticism of celibacy within their own lives it is pointless to expect a small group of “elite” Christians to live up to this ideal. Not only is it psychologically difficult to expect one group of men to do this, it is also extremely bad theology. Celibacy is a common calling, expressing the faith of the Church in the coming Kingdom. It will only be possible for this faith to be lived in its most radical way if this life is deeply understood and valued by the wider community. To be blunt: it is both psychologically dangerous and theologically illiterate for a Christian community that values sexual “freedom,” including sex outside of marriage, adultery, abortion, and the contraceptive mentality, to then demand an entirely different sexual standard from its priests. Priests do not become celibate merely because they feel a personal call to a life of sacrifice”at least, they ought not. Priests accept celibacy because they lead a community that is as a whole committed to the ascetic discipline necessary to transfigure human sexuality into an experience of the divine. Celibacy is healthy when it is regarded as a common labor in which each Christian has a share.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 915 |
Kudos, Nelson Chase. I hit the metaphorical like button.
For the record, though, I don't think that an "ascetical" and a "legalistic" approach to celibacy are mutually exclusive. The law is meant to be in service to truth and goodness, and to the ascetical goals of the Christian life.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 78
Member
|
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 78 |
That one is a sacrament and one is not. One Christ made into a vehicle of sacramental grace. One is an ascetic discipline. But according to the fathers, marriage is a sacrament because God blessed the post-lapsarian reality of carnal desire and sexual intercourse for the propagation of the species, whereas celibacy is the natural state of man (i.e., most of the Fathers seemed to believe that there was no sexual intercourse before the fall). Celibacy requires no sacrament because it is how we are intended to be in the kingdom. I think that both marriage and monasticism are holy mysteries, and so I see no reason to denigrate one or the other (not that you are advocating doing that). After all, both are holy callings, each in its own way. That said, the monastic life does afford one the greater possibility of controlling the passions through the practice of prayer and ascesis and this no doubt is a great spiritual gift, but married life has its own rewards and it also requires a type of maturity and control through self-renunciation that is ordered to one's spouse and children. Both are sacred callings if they are lived for God. That is all true. We should always remember that above all, the crowns used in the sacrament of matrimony are the crowns of martyrdom. As you correctly perceived, I did not mean to denigrate Marriage, but only to explain why celibacy does not have a sacrament proper attached to it as marriage does, because the one took something that was itself a rather tragic incident (the fall of mankind and the subsequent infiltration of carnal desire into our lives), and blessed it into a way for a man and a woman to grow in holiness together, whereas the other has no particular sacrament proper attached to it because it is simply emulating the angelic life and the life of the kingdom where there will be no sexual intercourse or sexual desire.
Last edited by Cavaradossi; 04/01/14 02:07 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569 Likes: 2
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569 Likes: 2 |
The assumptions that marriage was instituted after the fall and that carnal desire is also postlapsarian are entirely gratuitous as they are perniciously false. In addition, you confuse celibacy (not marrying) with monasticism: two entirely different things!
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 78
Member
|
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 78 |
The assumptions that marriage was instituted after the fall and that carnal desire is also postlapsarian are entirely gratuitous as they are perniciously false. In addition, you confuse celibacy (not marrying) with monasticism: two entirely different things! If it were so pernaciously false, I would then have to ask you why it is that Ss. Augustine, Leo, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa, Maximus the Confessor, and John of Damascus all could have taught such a pernicious error. St. John of Damascus elegantly summarizes the patristic teaching up to that point in time in this passage from On the Orthodox Faith 4.24: Men who are carnal and given to pleasure belittle virginity and offer by way of testimony the saying, 'Cursed be every man who raiseth not up seed in Israel.' But we, made confident by the fact that God the Word took flesh of a virgin, declare that virginity is from above and was implanted in men's nature from the beginning. Thus, man was formed from the virgin earth. Eve was created from Adam alone. Virginity was practiced in paradise. Indeed, sacred Scripture says that 'they were naked, to wit, Adam and Eve: and were not ashamed.' However, once they had fallen, they knew that they were naked and being ashamed they sewed together aprons for themselves. After the fall, when Adam heart 'Dust thou art, and unto dust return,' and death entered into the word through transgression, then 'Adam knew Eve his wife: who conceived and brought forth.' And so to keep the race from dwindling and by being destroyed by death marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved.
But they may ask: What, then, does 'male and female' mean, and 'increase and multiply'? To which we shall reply that the 'increase and multiply' does not mean increasing by the marriage union exclusively, because, if they had kept the commandment unbroken forever, God could have increased the race by some other means. But, since God, who knows all things before they come to be, saw by His foreknowledge how they were to fall and be condemned to death, He made provision beforehand by creating them male and female and commanding them to increase and multiply.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8
Member
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 |
St. John of Damascus elegantly summarizes the patristic teaching up to that point in time in this passage from On the Orthodox Faith 4.24 . . . St. John does not summarize the patristic teaching, but only a patristic teaching. That some Fathers taught a post-lapsarian view of the conjugal relationship - in opposition to the clear teaching of sacred scripture that God created man as male and female and that He from the beginning intended the sexes to experience the marital embrace - is a fact, but it does not mean that anyone is bound to accept that rather gnostic notion. This is a case where scripture must trump the teaching of certain Fathers, i.e., Fathers who are only binding when they are teaching in consensus a particular idea as de fide. That said, Christ is quite clear in the Gospel when He says that God created man as male and female in order for them to live together in marriage. Moreover, the union of Christ and the Church, in both the New Testament and in the writings of the first two centuries of the Christian era (i.e., the writings of the Apostolic Fathers), signifies the importance of marriage. Jesus in the Gospel presents the eschaton as a marital feast, and the Pseudo-Clementine homily makes an explicit connection between Christ (as male) and the Church (as female) and the creation of mankind in the unity of two sexes. I see no reason to accept the rather gnostic notion that conjugal life is a result of the fall into sin, or that the propagation of the species only became necessary as a consequence of the fall. I accept that certain consequences in relation to marital life result from the fall, but the marital embrace is not one of them, because it was intended by God from the very beginning. Disordered passions certainly are a result of the fall, but the conjugal act is not.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8
Member
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 |
The assumptions that marriage was instituted after the fall and that carnal desire is also postlapsarian are entirely gratuitous as they are perniciously false. In addition, you confuse celibacy (not marrying) with monasticism: two entirely different things! I agree. There is no dogmatic consensus among the Fathers on this point, and scripture itself is clear that sexual complimentarity was intended by God from the very beginning, and that is clear both in the Genesis narratives about the creation of man, and in Christ's own teaching about marriage in the Holy Gospels.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8
Member
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 |
As far as the holy mysteries are concerned, having read through the prayers of the Great Book of Needs it is clear to me that the rite for entering monastic life is a holy mystery (i.e., a sacrament), and so I do not accept the notion that marriage is a sacrament while monastic life is not. To put it another way: why should I hold to the late medieval Western notion that there are only seven sacraments when the prayers of the Church make it clear that there are many more holy mysteries? After all, the rule of prayer is the rule of belief.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569 Likes: 2
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569 Likes: 2 |
Sorry, but after last evening's Great Canon I am more convinced than ever that I must spend the rest of my life in peace and repentance rather than sparring with bloggers about the lives of first-created Adam and Eve in Paradise! I am called to live my life in this sinful world and do so (as a miserable failure) with the aid of the seven Holy Mysteries, none of which is counterindicated by another! By the way, in St. Gregory of Nyssa's treatise on virginity he mentions that he himself did not preserve his: he bestowed it on his lady wife, St. Theosebeia!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8
Member
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 |
Sorry, but after last evening's Great Canon I am more convinced than ever that I must spend the rest of my life in peace and repentance rather than sparring with bloggers about the lives of first-created Adam and Eve in Paradise! I am called to live my life in this sinful world and do so (as a miserable failure) with the aid of the seven Holy Mysteries, none of which is counterindicated by another! By the way, in St. Gregory of Nyssa's treatise on virginity he mentions that he himself did not preserve his: he bestowed it on his lady wife, St. Theosebeia! I also must live as a sinner in a fallen, but redeemed, world, and I trust only in the aid of grace that comes to me from the innumerable holy mysteries of Christ's Church.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186 |
You have mentioned Chrysostom and other fathers, and even Paul in Scripture, but no one has yet brought up the words of Christ himself on the matter. What did Jesus say when the disciples suggested it's better to remain single one's whole life than to be married if it's true that there is basically no justification at all for a man divorcing his wife? " Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it." (Matt 19:11-12) In other words, yes, objectively speaking, consecrated celibacy is a higher form of life than marriage is. (While, subjectively speaking, the "highest" form of life for each individual is the one to which they are called.) What the disciples file as a complaint, Jesus turns into a unexpectedly positive affirmation. (cf. John 11:49-52) As far as the holy mysteries are concerned, having read through the prayers of the Great Book of Needs it is clear to me that the rite for entering monastic life is a holy mystery (i.e., a sacrament), and so I do not accept the notion that marriage is a sacrament while monastic life is not. To put it another way: why should I hold to the late medieval Western notion that there are only seven sacraments when the prayers of the Church make it clear that there are many more holy mysteries? I can't speak for Eastern praxis as I am currently Roman Catholic (albeit with very strong eastern sympathies, and in fact strongly contemplating transferring rites soon). I'd just like to ask a question - which is higher/loftier: a sacrament or the reality it represents/manifests? While it is true that marriage is a sacrament and consecrated celibacy (at least in the west) is not, that, I might suggest, only reinforces the point. Marriage is "only" a sacrament while consecrated celibacy is the eschatological reality itself in its fullness, right here and now.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186 |
Returning to the first page of posts in this thread, I would plead with Anna, Irish, and others of like mind to be very aware of the fact that Roman Catholics in America today are not very aware of you. Very few even know you exist, and many of those who do know you exist don't give any sort of consideration to eastern Catholicism, probably for two main reasons:
1) Last I checked, the number of all eastern Catholics combined in this country dwarfs the Roman Catholic population by tens of millions, if I'm not mistaken. No, this does not mean the East should be ignored. I'm just saying that it simply hasn't been "big enough" to date in America to be on Roman Catholic radar.
2) Perhaps more importantly than this fact is the fact that, in stark contrast with the eastern Churches, the Roman Catholic Church (in America at least) no longer has much of a central culture to it. This is something I presume most easterns take for granted having, and shouldn't. A society that has no single, unifying culture to it has to do a lot more psychological work to "keep all the pieces of the puzzle together" in terms of who they are and what they actually stand for than someone who is a part of a society with a rich, coherent, central culture.
Does that make sense?
So, what I'm suggesting by it is that even of those Roman Catholics who do know you, it's enough for us to just to keep track of what's really orthodox theology and praxis in the West in the first place; nevermind considering the alternate (equally valid) perspective of the East. That's too much to handle and keep straight in one (or maybe even many) sittings. This is no slight to anyone's intelligence. It really is a lot more psychological work for us.
So, the next time you read an article like the one mentioned, don't read, "Why no priests of any kind should be married." Read it, "Why I don't want Roman Catholic priests to marry." Because that's most likely what the author means to actually say. And then, as you read the article and come across theological arguments that simply don't follow from the perspective (or experience) of the East, keep this struggle for western Catholic identity in mind. Don't take offense to stuff like this, is what I'm trying to say. Quite the contrary. Pity (in charity, not condescendingly) those who have lost a full sense of who they are as Catholic Christians.
Peace be with you.
|
|
|
|
|