www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology I'm thinking on becoming Byzantine, but.....

Where can I get a copy of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches? If the laity should know it then it should be easy to find.

This is one of the points I find more appealing in the Byzantine Church. It seems to me that the Roman Church is a bit more legalistic.

There is a Word document on the internet of the Code of Canon Law.

Your little brother in Christ,
David

Dear David,

You raise a good point.

I am no expert on Canon Law, so I'll stay clear of that issue.

But the Roman penchant for exactness which some MAY call "legalism" may be one of the West's strengths and not necessarily a bad thing.

For example, when it comes to listing their Saints, the old calendars not only provide more exact details than the Eastern Calendars ever did, they may sometimes provide the street name on which a given Martyr died!

But, then again, you don't get to be a big Empire using poor filing methods, do you?

God bless,

Alex

"It seems that certain Eastern Catholics are very ready to jump to the Orthodox Church without a second thought."

Too dismissive. Most of us thought and prayed long and hard for a year or more before doing it.

"I certainly don't want to offend any Orthodox here, but as a Catholic I consider the Orthodox Church schismatic."

Understandable, as this is the traditional RC belief. It's not the present RC understanding, however. By the way, most Orthodox don't find this particularly offensive (they know that's what traditionally the RCC taught) -- but many find it humorous!

"used us as a stepping stone"

Not a fair characterization.

"Personally, I find this to be demonstrative of little respect for the Byzantine community that so graciously welcomed them"

No, it's more a case of developing a disagreement with that community.

"much of the Byzantine tradition is missing, and has since been replaced with Latin customs"

No, actually the Byzantine Catholic parish I belonged to worked very hard to be more Orthodox than the Orthodox. For me, it had mpore to do with contradictions of faith, mixed messages and confusion from Eastern Catholic clerics (many of whom disagree vehemently about many things relating to Orthodoxy), belonging with the source of the tradition and the like. If I wanted the "purest" ritual, I would have stayed in my old Melkite parish. But there's more to Orthodoxy than ritual. In fact, the attitude you express here is emblematic, in a way, of Catholicism's attitude toward Eastern Christianity -- it's a matter of ritual and customs. Orthodoxy disagrees, strongly, with that.

"and ecclesiology"

Nope. Nothing much happening on that one. Theology is also pretty weak and contradicted. Compare Bishop John Elya with Archbishop Elias Zohghby. I'll admit that a lot is being done liturgically and spiritually -- but theology is pretty much not discussed and ecclesiology is purely Roman.

Brendan

>>>I and most Byzantine Catholics would dissent from this statement.<<<

You would be wrong, then. I refer you to the article, "Report onthe International Symposium Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium", by Archimandrite Serge Kelleher, Eastern Churches Journal Volume 2 No.2, Summer 1995.

The Conference, held at the Melkite Theological Academy at Balamand, Lebanon, 21-29 April 1995, involved members of the Ukrainian, Maronite, and Melkite Churches, as well as the Greek-Catholic Exarchate of Athens and the Church of Rome. It included clerical and lay theologians, and was chaired by none other than His Beatitude, Maximos V, Patriarch of Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and All the East.

The general tone of the conference was highly critical of the Code as a Latin imposition upon the Eastern Churches, a document of a type unknown in the Eastern Traditions, and, at best, an improvement over the various Multu Proprio clauses appended to the Latin Code which it superseded. The consensus was that the CCEO was an interim measure on the way towards recovery of the fullness of the Eastern Christian Tradition regarding the canons.

Brendan,

You write:

"In fact, the attitude you express here is emblematic, in a way, of Catholicism's attitude toward Eastern Christianity -- it's a matter of ritual and customs. Orthodoxy disagrees, strongly, with that."

I agree with you fully on this point. However, I was addressing a Latin Catholic and was using language that would be more familiar to him. I didn't want to toss the guy into deep water too soon, as he might drown.

Anthony

Hello, I'd like to make few comments regarding to "fightingirish" questions.

First of all, the Orthodox Church is NOT a Schismatic church at all! Pope Paul VI and Patriarch of Constantinople (forgot his name, may he rest in peace), both have lifted excommunication from each other's churches. In fact, if you go to the Vatican, it stated so on the walls at the gate of the square.

Seconly, you asked "Who" is the Patriarch of Constantinople? His name is Barthomelow I, he is the true successor of holy Apostle Andrew. Which by the way is important for pray for unity, you see, Peter and Andrew are brothers. Pope of Rome being successor of St. Peter and his holiness Barthomelow I as successor of St. Andrew, let us pray to the Lord that fullness of unity will be acheived just as Jesus DESIRES and PRAYED for.

Thirdly, don't be disappointed that devotions of the Western Church doesn't have a place in the Eastern Church, it's not because it's bad, it's just because certain devotions weren't introduced. Same thing with Eastern Devotions didn't have a place in the Western Church. Devotions should not be a big deal, devotions are just devotions, that's that. It is NOT essential to our salvation! REMEMBER THAT!!! Rosary or Akathist is NOT going to get us to Heaven. It may help, but don't rely on it to get to Heaven. RELY on the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments), which is life giving gifts to our souls, and is the source of God, God is the one who saves us through the Sacraments and His Holy Death and Resurrection.

Just understand that the Holy Orthodox and the Holy Catholic Church IS ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. Both Churches are true Church which Jesus Christ founded upon St. Peter. Orthodox sacraments are just as valid as the Catholic's.

Finally, my BIGGEST advice to you, regarding to your plans to become Byzantine. I would STRONGLY suggest you "live and breathe" Byzantine for at least a year or two years BEFORE you officially transfer your "rite" over to Byzantine (like on papers, etc.). DO NOT RUSH. I REPEAT...DO NOT RUSH!!!! Satan likes to rush rush rush. Don't be hasty. Take your time, let your prayer life change, your spiritual life change, etc. It won't happen overnight. Know that the Eastern Spirituality is polar opposites to the Western Spirituality. I can say the same thing about mentality and disciplines.

I encourage you NOT to bring Western Devotions or influences to the Byzantine Churches (aka "Latinizationing") which is serious offense to Byzantines especially since we are trying to reclaim our traditions and hertiage...strongly encouraged by our Holy Father, Pope of Rome.

Us Byzantines have NO concept of liberalism or conservativism in our church. Why? Because we are one and same Byzantine Church as almost 2000 years ago. We have no intention of changing our tradition or compromise it in anyway because of certain times or ages. Tradition is tradition. You see, the problems which Roman Church are having is SIMPLY THEIR PROBLEMS, NOT ours! It's not ours to get involved into. We are just too focused on our church right now, reclaiming it, etc. especially in former communist countries which many Byzantine Churches are NOW coming out of underground, etc. We have a lot going on right now to even be concerned with our Roman brethren.

You have a pleasant journey to Byzantine Catholicism! TAKE ONE STEP AT AT TIME, you will not regret taking slow pace, the rewards are great at the end! May God bless you and your family especially during this Holy Great Fast.

spdundas

I thank you all for your input. I have learned more in just a couple days from reading your responses, then in a few months of personal searching.

Thank you all. I'm sure I'll have more questions that can be answered here

Glory to Jesus Christ!

[This message has been edited by fightingIrish (edited 03-23-2001).]

Guitarra,

"We don�t have a devotion to the Sacred Heart because we already emphasis Christ�s love for mankind."

Well, yes that is mostly true. However, over Christmas I worshipped in the Sacred Heart Byzantine Catholic Church in Livonia, Michigan. It looked exactly like a Roman Church with a few murals that looked like icons stuck on the wall and a glass iconostasis. Much kneeling on the kneelers attached to pews was had by all except me. I'm not familiar enough to know all the times to offer the sign of the cross, nor when to always offer a profound bow, but I did my best as I remained standing throughout the Liturgy.

I was caught in a cunundrum (sp?). I was not trying to be rebellious but I simply am not familiar with the Roman traditions and did not know when to kneel and when not to. So, I just followed what I knew of the Byzantine customs. The words of the liturgy were the words of St. John but most everything else was quite Roman.

It was good to worship but rather strange at the same time.

Dan L

Dear Fighting Irish:

The Patriach of Contatinople is Bartholomew I and he has a web page. Many of my family members are members of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church and he is their Patriarch. The Patriarchate has a web page at:
http://www.patriarchate.org/

You might want to visit that page for more information.

I am a Catholic, as some folks might know if they've read my posts before. My dad was a Catholic and my mom Orthodox. We had relatives who were Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Orthodox. We sure never used the "s" word (or even worse, the "u" word) in our house.

Gee, I find the concept of reading up on Easter traditions to be a little strange, but I could see the need if you haven't ever experienced them first-hand. When I grew up, we observed both Eastern and Western traditions - that meant Christmas twice (what kid wouldn't fondly remember that?!).

Just because its my tradition and I like their page, I'd send you to check out:
http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/customs/eastr.htm.

You shouldn't be embarrassed to call the church that you have been attending and ask about traditions. They'll be happy to share. They will love to answer your questions, I'm sure. I have gone to different Eastern churches and found some variation, even among Slavic traditions. People love to share their culture. Ask them - its a good way to meet people and learn more about the community.

W/r/t unique devotions of the Eastern and Western churches, I think that you will find some beautiful devotions in the Byzantine Church that come "from on high" (to use your phrase) and that you may not have been aware of before. Be open to the fact that the spiritual gifts given by Our Lord to the faithful of the East and West may differ in their traditional expression, but these gifts are equally beautiful and valid.

Your friend,
Mrs. P.

Hello Dan,

Glad to hear you are getting to visit other parishes in your travels. It might interest you to know that we had another parish in Michigan years ago called Christ the King. We also have a parish in Pittsburgh named for Pope Saint Pius X. Also, many of your fellow parishioners are former members of a late parish in Joliet which was called St. Mary's of the Assumption.


What you witnessed were not "Roman traditions." You were in a Byzantine Catholic church where the people worship in a way they have done for at least several generations. I am quite sure that a Roman Catholic at that Liturgy would have had no more clue about when to stand, sit, kneel, than you did.

Actually, with the perspective that kneeling is a posture of adoration, the "KNEEL" directives in our Liturgy books are not only traditional, they are appropriate. As far as kneeling on Sundays, I agree that it would be best not to do it, but I can see from the parish I attend occasionally here -- where in general people don't kneel on Sundays -- that the people have no idea what that means nor why they should or should not be doing it.

This is to me a far greater tragedy than kneeling out of adoration for the Most Holy Eucharist.


With all due respect, I am sure that most Byzantine Catholics would have felt quite comfortable at the Liturgy in that church. Good or bad, that's how things are.


[This message has been edited by RichC (edited 03-23-2001).]

Dear RichC,

Yes, you are right.

The Orthodox Kyivan Baroque period produced saints such as St Dmytry Tuptalenko of Rostov who wrote prayers in honour of the "Wounded Heart of Christ."

St Nicholas Cabasilas also writes about Orthodox devotion to the Heart of Christ in his work on the Divine LIturgy, published by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press.

I used to practice the Western devotion to the Sacred Heart and then stopped.

Now I link my Jesus Prayer devotion to a meditation of Christ's Wounded Side and this is very meaningful to me.

Alex

>>>This is to me a far greater tragedy than kneeling out of adoration for the Most Holy Eucharist.<<<
RichC

I'm sorry. Could you please clarify this for me? Are you saying its bad to kneel before the Blessed Sacrament?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Heavens, no!

I believe Dan implied such (for Byzantine Catholics), but I won't put words in his mouth.

I would rather have a bunch of Latinized Byzantine Catholics who knelt on Sundays out of adoration for the Most Holy Eucharist, than a bunch of "Orthodox" Byzantine Catholics who don't kneel because somebody told them they were not to kneel because we Byzantines don't kneel -- and have no idea why.

In fact, around here those poor people don't kneel ever, EXCEPT after receiving Communion, which is the absolute least appropriate time one should kneel (whether by Byzantine or Roman theology!).

Dear FightingIrish,

My dear, combative friend!

In the East and in the Celtic Church of old, kneeling is considered an act of personal penitence, appropriate for Lent/Great Fast.

The Council of AD325 actually forbade kneeling on Sundays and during the Paschal Season.

Standing is a great act of adoration of God as it affirms symbolically our belief in Christ's Resurrection and in our own.

Alex

Thank you for the info. I was not aware. I personally feel compelled to kneel at consecration, especially when the priest elevates the Host. It is Jesus Himself he elevates. I feel compelled to kneel before my Lord

Thanks agains

Glory to Jesus Christ!