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Joined: Apr 2014
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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
It seems to me that one of the problems we are having here is the tension between how to validly and appropriately express the love of God, which is to all mankind....sinners and saints alike....without at the same time appearing to validate the heretical or immoral behavior of one to whom we wish to offer Christ's love.

Exactly. Yes.

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One thing that seems problematic to me is that we live in a time when the "let's normalize homosexual behavior" crowd is trying to bash down the doors of both Catholic orthodoxy and normal sexual morality, the timing of our Holy Father's actions and the method he chose are not helping the Church stand for God's truth in this matter.

It is a tough situation.

It is, Irish, it totally is. I totally grant that. But the thing we have to be careful to do is to not get to myopic about it. The virtue of prudence is crucial here. If this is a battle and the goal is to "win" it, it should be kept in mind that while many people are persuaded more by force than by "love" or reason, there are also plenty of people who are just the opposite - persuaded more effectively by kindness, humility, patience, etc. than by decree or force.

Once again, look at Zaccheus. Perfect example. He was a major thief. And here comes Jesus, saying, "Hey man, I want to visit your home tonight and have dinner with you." Not, "Repent, sinner! Repent!" But, "Hey, can I spend some time tonight at your place?"

And guess what. It worked quite nicely! Jesus' request seems to have blown the man's mind to the extent that he converts right then and there. What would have happened had Jesus, instead, said, "SINNER! UNCLEAN!"? Best case scenario, maybe the same thing. Worst case scenario, maybe Zaccheus already knew darn well he was a sinner, and he sinned up a storm because he thought he was a worthless dude and was seeking to cover his worthlessness up by taking and spending a lot of money. Jesus calling him a sinner and to repent, without further adieu, would have simple confirmed his sense of worthlessness and permanent brokenness and driven him to hate the Lord instead of coming to love Him.

There is a saying to the effect that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Taking a hardline route is not always the wisest or most effective approach.

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Somewhere we have lost the ability to stand against error without being seen as "judgmental" and "mean-spirited." Now it appears that we are being told we must be kindly to everyone, regardless of what we may know about them, in order to be "Christlike."

No. We must be kind toward those who would be moved more effectively by kindness (to the fallible extent that we're able to tell, of course) but firm with those who...well...need to be "spanked."

May God always grant us the grace to tell the difference and then the courage, either way, to follow through.

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Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
The chronology here seems to indicate that Judas is still with them after the Lord has uttered these words. But....here is my question. When priests concelebrate, they all repeat the words of institution. No disciple at that table that night had either power, authority, or right to say anything along with Jesus. Hence, I do not call that "concelebrating."

A couple things to keep in mind. I'm not sure what the Byzantine tradition is, but I believe the Roman tradition is that it was the foot washing that essentially made the apostles priests - which obviously took place before the consecration that night.

Also, keep in mind that in the Ge'ez rite, I'm told, the words of consecration are not even pronounced during the liturgy. Somehow, without that happening at all, the gifts are transformed.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear desertman,

But that's not all our Lord did.

And He seemed to condemn the traditional religious establishment in most, if not all, cases.


Otherwise, He would not turn any sinner away and gently led them to repentance and union with Him.

Alex

And this is what is going to happen. A traditional order of Franciscans is already being cracked down on by the Vatican and basically taken over because of "traditional tendencies". Meanwhile, if you're openly pro-abortion, pro gay marriage, etc. - no problem, come to communion.

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Please, this string is become more bizarre by the minute! Cease and desist!

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What can I say? These are bizarre times. I can't close my eyes and ignore what's happening anymore.


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