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Dear Chad, Could you elaborate on this interesting point? Are you saying the Antiochians are "shifty?"  Alex
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Incidently if you research Oriental Orthodox sites you will find the words of the Creed exactly the same as the Byzantine Orthodox. So despite the controversy over Calcedon that separated them from the rest of the Church at the time, they have still carefully guarded the Creed as the Council specified it to be. This is not necessarily the case. The Oriental Orthodox allow for slight variations among the sister Churches. Example, Armenian Apostolic Church: Nicene Creed
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father. God of God, light of light, very God of very God, begotten and not made; himself of the nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate, became man, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit. By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered and was crucified and was buried
And rose again on the third day
And ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of whose kingdom there is no end.
We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect, who spake in the law in and in the prophets and in the gospels. Who came down upon the Jordan, preached to the apostles and dwelt in the saints.
We believe also in the only One Catholic and Apostolic Holy Church.
In one baptism of repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins.
In the resurrection of the dead,
In the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.
Amen. Syriac Orthodox Creed: We believe in one true God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, Who was begotten of the Father before all worlds; light of light, true God of true God; begotten and not made; and being of one substance with His Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God. And He became man, and was crucified for us in the days of Pontius Pilate, and He suffered, died and was buried, and the third day He rose according to His will, and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of His Father; and He will come again with great glory to judge both the living and the dead; and His kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life to all, Who proceeds from the Father; Who together with the Father and Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the Prophets and Apostles.
And in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the new life in the world to come. Coptic Orthodox version 1: The Creed of Faith
We believe in one God, God the Father the Pantocrator who created heaven and earth, and all things seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried. And on the third day He rose from the dead, according to the scriptures, ascended to the heavens; He sits at the right hand of his Father, and He is coming again in His glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.
Yes, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Life-Giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.
And in one holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age. Amen. Coptic Orthodox version 2: Truly we believe in one God; God the Father the Almighty; creator of heaven and earth, and all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord; Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of light, true God of true God, Begotten not created. Who, for us humans and for our salvation, came down from heaven and was incarnated of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried, and on the third day, He rose from the dead according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven, and sat at the right hand of the Father, and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord the Life Giver, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And in One, Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen. Ethiopian Orthodox v1: We believe in one God, maker of all creation. Father of our Lord and our God and our Savior Jesus Christ, because his nature is unsearchable. As we have before declared, he is without beginning and without end, but He is ever living, and He has light which is never extinguished and He can never be approached. He is not two or three and no addition can be made to Him; but He is only one, living for ever, because He is not hidden that He cannot be known, but we know Him perfectly through the law and the prophets, that He is almighty and has authority over all the creation. One God, Father of our Lord and our Savior Jesus Christ, who was begotten before the creation of the world, the only-begotten Son, coequal with Him, creator of all the hosts, the principalities and the dominions; Who in the last days was pleased to become man, and took flesh from our Lady Mary, the holy Virgin, without the seed of man, and grew like men yet without sin or evil; neither was guile found in his mouth. Then He suffered, died in the flesh, rose from the dead on the third day, ascended unto heaven to the Father who sent Him, sat down at the right hand of Power, sent to us the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, who proceedeth from the Father, and saved all the world, and who is co-eternal with the Father and the Son. We say further that all the Creatures of God are good and there is nothing to be rejected, and the spirit, the life of the body, is pure and holy in all. And we say that marriage is pure, and childbirth is undefiled, because God created Adam and Eve to multiply. We understand further that there is in our body a soul which is immortal and does not perish with the body. We repudiate all the works of heretics and all schisms and transgression of the law, because they are for us impure. We also believe in the resurrection of the dead, the righteous and sinners; and in the day of judgement, when every one will be recompensed according to his deeds. We also believe that Christ is not in the least degree inferior because of His incarnation, but He is God, the Word who truly became man, and reconciled mankind to God being the High-priest of the Father. Henceforth let us not be circumcised like the Jews. We know that he who had to fulfill the law and the prophets has already come. To Him, for those coming all people looked forward. Jesus Christ, who is descended from Judah, from the root of Jesse, whose government is upon his shoulder: to Him be glory, thanksgiving, greatness, blessing, praise, song, both now and ever and world without end. Amen Ethiopian v2: "We believe in one God, Maker of all creation, Father of our Lord and our God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, because his nature is unsearchable.
As we have before declared (i.e. in Didascalia), he is without beginning and without end, but he is ever living, and he has light which is never extinguished, and he can never be approached.
He is not two or three, and no addition can be made to him, but he is only one, living for ever, because he is not hidden that he cannot be known, but we know him perfectly through the law and the prophets, that he is almighty and has authority over all the creation.
One God, Father of our Lord and our Saviour Jesus Christ, who was begotten before the creation of the world, the onlybegotten Son coequal with him, creator of all the hosts, the principalities and the dominions:
Who in the last days was pleased to become man, and took flesh from our Lady Mary, the holy Virgin, without Me seed of man, and grew like men yet without sin or evil; neither was guile found in his mouth.
Then he suffered, died in the flesh, rose from the dead on the third day, ascended unto heaven to the Father who sent him, sat down at the right hand of Power, sent to us the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, and saved all the world, and who is co-eternal with the Father and the Son.
We say further that all the creatures of God are good and there is nothing to be repented of, and the spirit, the life of the body, is pure and holy in all.
And we say that marriage is pure and childbirth is undefiled because God created Adam and Eve to multiply. We under stand further that there is in our body a soul which is immortal and does not perish with the body.
We repudiate all the works of heretics and all schisms and transgression of the law, because they are for us impure.
We also believe in the resurrection of the dead, the righteous and sinners; and in the day of judgment, when every one will be recompensed according to his deeds.
We also believe that Christ is not in the least degree inferior because of his incarnation, but he is God the Word who truly became man, and reconciled mankind to God being the High-Priest of the Father.
Henceforth let us not be circumcised like the Jews. We know that he who had to fulfil the law and the prophets has already come.
To him, for whose coming all people looked forward, Jesus Christ, who is descended from Judah, from the root of Jesse, whose government is upon his shoulder: to him be the glory, thanksgiving, greatness, blessing, praise, song, both now and ever and world without end, Amen." Ethiopian v3: We believe in one God, in the Lord the Father, who holds the whole world, omnipotent, who created everything visible and invisible in heaven and in earth (Gen. 1, 20; Neh. 9. Rom. 1.20).
We believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, the one Son of the Father, who was with Him before the Creation of the world. Light begotten of Light, True God begotten of True God, not created. He is equal with the Father. There is nothing in heaven and earth which exists without Him. Mt. 3,17, In 1. 1,4.
For us and for the salvation of men He came down from heaven; by the operation of the Holy Spirit He put on flesh of the holy Virgin Mary and became man. In the time of Pontius Pilate He was crucified for us, suffered and died and was buried, and on the third day He was separated from the dead and rose, and with glory He ascended to heaven and sat on the right hand of His Father, and He shall come again in honour and glory that He may judge the living and the dead, and there is no finish, no end of His Kingdom. Mat. 1: 20,21; I Pet. 3. 18; Phil. 2. 6,8; Rom. 5. 8; Cor. 15. 3,4; 1 Pet. 3. 19,20.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord who saves, Hc who proceeds from the Father; together with the Father and the Son we worship Him, we honor Him, we glorify Him. Jn. v. 3, 4; Jn. xv. 26.
And we believe in one Holy church, which is over all, the assembly and congregation of the Apostles, Eph. ii. 19, 20,22.
And we believe in one Baptism, that it was given for the forgiveness of sin. Eph. 4. 3,6; Ps. 32. 1,2; Eph. 1. 6.
And believing in the resurrection of the dead, we hope for everlasting life to come. Jn. 5. 285,29; 1 Cor. 15. 22,24; Jn. 10. 27, 28 ( The Teaching of the Abyssinian Church ) .
The dogmas we believe are contained in this symbol of the Faith. No one has any right to add to or take from it. Other dogmas are contained in the dogmatic definitions of the Third Council in Ephesus which declared that Christ is one in hypostasis, perfect God and perfect man, is the Son of God, without a mother on the higher plane, and the Son of His Mother without a father on the lower. His ever-Virgin Mother is properly and truly called the Mother of God, as having properly and truly given birth in the flesh to God the Logos. In addition, the Old Believers add "istynnago" to the part of the Creed dealing with the Holy Spirit (True and Life-Giving). However, this doesn't take away from Brother Bob Theophan's point. The above additions merely serve to illustrate, by way of adjectives, various portions of the Creed for the local Churches. None of the above Creeds alter the theology of the original Creed with respect to the teaching on the Holy Spirit or any other teaching. Alex
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But that's part of the point - that the original creed itself is not altered. It is left in tact, and simply "adorned" by the West in its common usage. Gotta love the internet. I'm sorry, I have a small mind. Unpack what seems to be the put-down for me?  Alright, that's fair enough. (If it was a put down, my apologies for that.) I guess an unpacked form would be an emoticon of someone being half-asleep, then being suddenly woken up by some occurrence and saying "Huh, what was that? ... Eh, never mind, it's just the internet" and becoming half-asleep again. Anyhow, as far as trying to argue with you about your "not altered, adorned" idea, I'll say No comment. In fact, the Oriental Creeds referenced by Michael Thoma illustrate the "adorned" idea. The Filioque is not an adornment, but an "add-on" that imposes a Western tradition on the entire Church, by virtue of the fact the Creed was and is intended to express the faith of the entire Church i.e. there is nothing in the original Creed that was not accepted by the united Orthodox Catholic Church of Christ in the first millennium. For that reason alone, it should be removed (and should have never entered into the Creed in the West). The point is that there are more compelling reasons for Rome to return to the original Creed and it should do so as a way to signal its intention to move forward with the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue that goes beyond mere theological statements by ecumenical commissions. As Recluse correctly points out, this should not be another thread on the Filioque. The best way of dealing with the Filioque is to drop it out of the Creed. Pope Francis can do that and I, for one, hope he does. Alex
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The Orthodox feel that ecumenism is "creeping uniatism," Another odd term to use...though I can understand the concern amongst the Orthodox. For many Orthodox, dialogue is not necessary. Many feel that Rome needs to back up the clock to a time when there were not official doctrines that must be adhered to (under pain of excommunication).......doctrines such as papal infallibility/supremacy, Immaculate Conception, and purgatory....and of course the filioque would need to disappear.
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The best way of dealing with the Filioque is to drop it out of the Creed. Hurray! We have reached another point of agreement!
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I think "unionist" is a rather innovative word to use in describing St Mark (regardless of what prof. Meyendorff has to say). St Mark participated with great trepidation and spoke out against issues such as purgatory, unleavened bread, and filioque.....before the synod even began. The Latins considered him to be a hindrance to union. He attended the synod with the best intentions.....but to call him a "unionist" is a far reach. In my experience, many conservative Orthodox use "unionist" interchangeably with "ecumenical". (I see Alex has already beaten me to that point ... which saves me from needing to elaborate  .) But speaking as someone who doesn't use them interchangeably, my answer is: No, I don't call St Mark a "unionist", any more than I do Patriarch Bartholomew I.
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Are you saying the Antiochians are "shifty?" Met Philip had some very innovative moments. I think there are many Antiochian clergy who are chomping at the bit for an adherence to a more traditional direction.
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[ No, I don't call St Mark a "unionist", any more than I do Patriarch Bartholomew I. The jury is still out on that one. 
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The search for a 'more traditional direction' is usually fruitless as it typically never ends for those embarked upon such a quest. Just when one thinks they have entered into 'traditional Orthodox perfection', up pops some older practices or thoughts or alternative ideas.
Frankly, this search rarely is encountered among long term members of the Church - in Orthodoxy at least.....
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The search for a 'more traditional direction' is usually fruitless Thank God the Fathers and Saints of the Church did not hold such a view. Just when one thinks they have entered into 'traditional Orthodox perfection' Aha....now you have changed the equation. You have replaced Holy Tradition with "traditional Orthodox perfection"....whatever that is. Frankly, this search rarely is encountered among long term members of the Church - in Orthodoxy at least.. I have experienced quite the opposite amongst those who seek to follow the Holy Tradition of the Church. It also works quite well for most of our monastic communities. Holy Orthodoxy looks to Sacred Scripture and the writings and teachings of the Holy Fathers, Saints, and Councils. That is where we get our Tradition. It works quite well!
Last edited by Recluse; 06/06/14 08:01 AM.
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Dear Recluse,
Certainly, I can see where "unionist" would have its problems . . .
For me, St Mark of Ephesus is an authentic voice of Orthodoxy as well as someone who did desire union of the Churches on the basis of truth.
Eastern Catholics should venerate him - indeed I know of those who do and several Roman Catholics I know.
Alex
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The best way of dealing with the Filioque is to drop it out of the Creed. Hurray! We have reached another point of agreement! Do think this could be as a result of the intercession of St Mark of Ephesus? St Photios the Great perhaps? Alex
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The search for a 'more traditional direction' is usually fruitless Thank God the Fathers and Saints of the Church did not hold such a view. Just when one thinks they have entered into 'traditional Orthodox perfection' Aha....now you have changed the equation. You have replaced Holy Tradition with "traditional Orthodox perfection"....whatever that is. Frankly, this search rarely is encountered among long term members of the Church - in Orthodoxy at least.. I have experienced quite the opposite amongst those who seek to follow the Holy Tradition of the Church. It also works quite well for most of our monastic communities. Holy Orthodoxy looks to Sacred Scripture and the writings and teachings of the Holy Fathers, Saints, and Councils. That is where we get our Tradition. It works quite well! Dear Recluse, Are you a member of an Orthodox monastic community? Alx
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I think "unionist" is a rather innovative word to use in describing St Mark (regardless of what prof. Meyendorff has to say). St Mark participated with great trepidation and spoke out against issues such as purgatory, unleavened bread, and filioque.....before the synod even began. The Latins considered him to be a hindrance to union. He attended the synod with the best intentions.....but to call him a "unionist" is a far reach. In my experience, many conservative Orthodox use "unionist" interchangeably with "ecumenical". (I see Alex has already beaten me to that point ... which saves me from needing to elaborate  .) But speaking as someone who doesn't use them interchangeably, my answer is: No, I don't call St Mark a "unionist", any more than I do Patriarch Bartholomew I. To be fair, Meyendorff only called St Mark a "unionist" prior to the Council but not as things went awry . . . Alex
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The search for a 'more traditional direction' is usually fruitless Thank God the Fathers and Saints of the Church did not hold such a view. Just when one thinks they have entered into 'traditional Orthodox perfection' Aha....now you have changed the equation. You have replaced Holy Tradition with "traditional Orthodox perfection"....whatever that is. Frankly, this search rarely is encountered among long term members of the Church - in Orthodoxy at least.. I have experienced quite the opposite amongst those who seek to follow the Holy Tradition of the Church. It also works quite well for most of our monastic communities. Holy Orthodoxy looks to Sacred Scripture and the writings and teachings of the Holy Fathers, Saints, and Councils. That is where we get our Tradition. It works quite well! Most Orthodox clergy and laity know EXACTLY to what I am referring. The search for the elusive fount of 'tradition' has corrupted the faith of many a seeker. I suppose that's one reason for the schismatic 'traditional' sects.
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