www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West How do you respond to this.....

In the book, Our Lady of Perpetual Help: The Icon, Favors, and Shrines [liguori.org], there is a quote by the Servant of God, Sister Lúcia of Fátima, who said, "The face of Our Lady of Fátima was just like that of Our Lady of Perpetual Help".

Antonio

Some people we need to pray that the Lord may soften their heart into a charitable one. Self-blindness is so predominant in many instances and in many lives.

Always learn your stuff well and be prepared to give an answer for the hope that lives in you. If you use language that is not charitable, it only escalates things, as when dialoguing with a teenager with hot hormones.

Always find ways to disarm your opponent, in a charitable form, with the least expected things. And be patient. In Portuguese there is an old saying which makes sense and flows well because of rhyming, but the message is clear:

Soft water onto hard rock,
Beats, beats until a hole it makes.

Be gentle and the fruits will be rewarding. Everything for the greater glory of God.

Yes, absolutely.

But in this instance, this traditional RC person is the one who is being most uncharitable and ignorant to the point of being sacriligious towards the "better half" of the Church of Christ (I borrow this from Martin Luther, if I may Fr. Thomas!).

Eastern Catholics have had it up to here defending their Eastern patrimony before their brothers and sisters who are under the same ecclesial roof as they. Why do we need to do that, especially in this day and age? Is it a virtue within traditional Roman Catholocism to disparage the Christian East? Does this not point to a sense of deep insecurity?

When the great EC Metropolitan Blessed Andrew Sheptytsky approached Pope St Pius X about his Church's rights, the holy Pontiff simply told him, "Make use of your rights!"

A part of that is our right to affirm and assert our ancient patrimonies - even when attacked by the ignorance of certain traditional Roman Catholics.

To instruct the ignorant is not uncharitable - it is a virtue in fact.

Alex

Interesting that the apparition at Litmanova is also portrayed with the Mother of God dressed the same way wearing clothing not resembling what was worn by her people at that time in Palestine. Takes some imagination! http://www.tccweb.org/litmanova.htm

I presume you are referring to depictions of the Theotokos wearing blue and white. In all fairness, I don't think women wore bright red during that time in Palestine either, but that is how She is often portrayed in icons.

Among Eastern Catholic saints, there are:

1) Saint Josaphat (whose incorrupt relics are enshrined at Saint Peter Basilica in Rome)
2) Saint Charbel Makhlouf (his relics were perfectly incorrupt from the time of his death in 1898 up until 1965) Link. [catholictradition.org]

That is also how She herself often chooses to appear to individuals and even to many people (e.g. Zeitoun).

Iconic colours are symbolic and are meant to teach religious truths in the first place (as do all icons).

The Theotokos appeared to Benoite Rencurel at Laus in France, a 15 year old, uneducated girl. The local Church authorities got together and ordered her to ask the "Lady" who she was and why she was appearing etc.

The next day, little Benoite appeared before the ecclesial commission and said, "The Lady told me to say this to you . . . 'All of you, as members of the hierarchy of the Church, have the privilege of calling down my Son on the Altar daily. But as to me - you have no influence over me. I do what I wish, where I wish and how I wish for the good of souls.'"

That's a favourite of mine.

Alex

Or one may also say that, save for the martyrs who were burnt alive etc., ALL the Byzantine Saints of old have been found to be incorrupt.

To make a list of them would be quite the onerous task.

So much so, that RC's once removed the body of (now Saint) Constantine Ostrozhky from his crypt in the Kyivan Caves Lavra and burnt it, along with that of his son Alexander, believing the Orthodox Church would not glorify them as saints without the evidence of incorrupt relics.

In other words, the RC's who did that themselves understood clearly how important and universal is the incorruptibility of relics in the canonization process of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Alex

Which Saint Josaphat?

This one. [newliturgicalmovement.org]

Got it.

I don't know how, but something in the pit of my stomach told me so.

Dear Griego,

You mean to say that the traditional RC person who first raised this issue doubts that Catholic saints are corruptible, just because they belong to the Byzantine Rite?

Wouldn't that call into question her own loyalty as an RC?

If so, this is more insidious than I thought!

Alex

Not meaning to be picky, but your last post may cause a little confusion. It's a response to me and it's addressed to Greigo, but Irish Ruthenian was the OP.

See what comes when one wants to be all-embracing and ecumenical?!

Confusion!

Alex