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Dear Bob,

You have really made my day/month with what you have said above.

After pondering all of this, it is clear that prayer is the only - and most important - way.

Cheers,

Alex

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Alex:

Christ is in our midst!!

Here is a little note about Godparents I found on the OCA website today. Lots to think about. And I still maintain that prayer for one's godchildren is absolutely essential.

I read another article recently that suggested that each family needs a "prayer warrior" in its midst. This is one person in the group who has a vibrant prayer life and includes intercessions for both family, friends, and others each and every day. Maybe that's your role in the family. It might also be said that vibrant parish families need a couple of these people, too.

Bob

Quote
Reflections in Christ / Fr. Lawrence Farley /

June 25, 2014
Baptismal Sponsorship, Past and Present
When infants are brought to the baptismal font, they not only come with parents and friends, but also their sponsors—traditionally in churches of the Russian tradition, a man and a woman. These sponsors have liturgical duties to perform during the service, such as holding the child, and making the responses when the priest requires that the child renounce Satan and unite himself to Christ. But there are other duties as well, which remain after the service is over.

In the classic “Priest’s Guide” as quoted by Archpriest David Abramtsov, we read the following: “The sponsors in Baptism are guarantors pledging to the Church that the baby to be baptized will be brought up in the faith of that Church; therefore they must be members of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.” Father David also writes, “Among the other duties of sponsors is the duty of seeing that their godchildren receive Holy Communion frequently, that they attend Sunday School and church regularly, that they learn their prayers and fulfill all the other requirements of the Orthodox Faith.” Sounds good. The only problem is that given our modern North American nuclear family, it is difficult for anyone to promise that their godchildren will fulfill these duties if the parents do not do their bit. And rash promises aside, we should be clear: if the parents do not raise their children in piety and faith, making sure that a living faith is communicated to their offspring, there is precious little that a godparent can do about it. A sponsor can nag, of course, and encourage, and maybe even plead. But the overwhelming lion share of responsibility falls with the parents, and especially with the dad.

The reality is that children learn what is important by observing what their parents do. Grandparents can inspire and influence to some degree, but theirs is a subordinate and supportive role. The parents will model piety for their children (or not), and this will provide the formative effect. Note: the children will learn from what their parents actually do, not just what they say. The parents may say, “Church is very, very important,” but if they do not go to church every week and devoutly receive Holy Communion, and say their private prayers, and pray at meal-times, such exhortations will be recognized by children for the hypocritical clap-trap it is. That is, the exhortations will have no lasting effect. In such a house where the parents do not exercise a living faith, the effect of the godparents’ exhortations and offers will be distinctly minimal. Auntie Sophie and Uncle Walter can be as winning and loving as ever, but their winning love cannot compensate for the poor examples of the parents.

One might be tempted to ask: this being the case, what’s the point of having sponsors? One might begin an answer by looking at how sponsorship functioned in the early Church. In those days, all candidates for baptism had sponsors, even the adults. The pilgrim known to scholars as “Egeria” tells us in her memoirs of her trip to the Holy Land how baptismal sponsorship functioned in Jerusalem in her day. She writes, “On the second day of Lent at the start of the eight weeks, the bishop’s chair is placed in the middle of the Great Church, the Martyrium, the presbyters sit in chairs on either side of him, and all the clergy stand. Then one by one those seeking baptism are brought up, men coming with their fathers and women with their mothers. As they come in one by one, the bishop asks their neighbours questions about them: ‘Is this person leading a good life? Does he respect his parents? Is he a drunkard or a boaster?’ He asks about all the serious human vices. And if his inquiries show him that someone has not committed any of these misdeeds, he himself puts down his name; but if someone is guilty he is told to go away, and the bishop tells him that he is to amend his ways before he may come to the font.” Thus in the early Church the function of the sponsors was to witness to the propriety of the baptism by testifying that the catechumenal candidate was indeed living a Christian life. (Presumably in cases of infant baptism, the issue was whether or not the parents of the infant candidate were living a Christian life.)

At very least then, sponsors function as vestigial witnesses to the nature of Christian discipleship. Baptism is not simply a “get it over with” sort of thing, like a child’s first vaccination. It is the beginning of a life of commitment to Christ and of striving for holiness. The presence of sponsors reveals that something is required of the candidate after the service is all over, and that this requirement is life-long. Baptism is thus like enrollment in school—the process of enrollment is important, but it is essentially meaningless unless one follows it up by actually going to school, attending classes, studying, and taking exams. Enrollment in school looks forward to the day of graduation; baptism looks forward to the day when we die and step into the Kingdom. Auntie Sophie and Uncle Walter stand by as sponsors and point the little candidate to that final and glorious day.

Last edited by theophan; 06/26/14 06:18 AM. Reason: spelling
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Bob:

Excellent piece.

In the Lutheran tradition the sponsor and parents are jointly asked this question:

Quote
You have presented this child for Holy Baptism. You should, therefore, faithfully bring him to the services of the Lord's house and teach him the Creed, the Lord's Prayer, and the Ten Commandments. As he grows in years you should place in his hands the Holy Scriptures and provide for his instruction in the Christian faith, so that, living in the communion of the holy church he may lead a godly life until the day of Jesus Christ.

Do you promise to fulfill these obligations?

Recognizing that the fulfillment of this vow involves far more of the faithful than just the parents and sponsors, I have added this follow up question:

[Will you, the people of God, do all in your power to assist these persons to fulfill their obligations?[/quote]

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Very good in theory - not so good in practice.

(I agree that it is all a challenge and will do my best etc.)

But what if the godchild is being carried by the current of a family life that is perhaps falling short of a good Christian development?

How does a godparent "insert" himself or herself so to speak when that occurs?

Alex

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Alex:

Christ is in our midst!!

Take the example of St. Monica and St. Augustine. Pray and pray and pray--and then pray some more, asking that all things be done according to His Holy Will. God listens.

There were some accounts in Our Hope, by Fr. Dmitri Dutko, of grandparents praying for years for grandchildren raised as atheists and somehow the Holy Spirit gained entrance into the hearts of the young only to have them become godly people.

Quote
Very good in theory . . .

Just don't give up and don't think that your effort or my effort is what will turn the tide. The Holy Spirit works and is working even when we can't see the results.

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 06/26/14 06:20 AM.
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Alex:

Christ is in our midst!!

I use this little prayer frequently throughout the day for people who pop into my head:

Lord, grant to (NN) whatever You know is necessary for health of soul, mind, and body in this life and in the life to come, life everlasting. Grant (NN) to end his/her/their pilgrimage in Your Presence and to hear the words we all long to hear "Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your Master." Amen

I don't pretend that I am God or know what is necessary for anyone so I don't try to put in intentions that may reflect me. I just put it into His Hands and move on.

Bob

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Originally Posted by theophan
The Holy Spirit works and is working even when we can't see the results.

Bob:

A very Lutheran statement! One of my favorite parts of Luther's Small Catechism is his explanation of the Third Article of the Creed:

Quote
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

And from the Confession of Augsburg:

Quote
That we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, 2] the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear 3] the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ's sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ's sake.

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Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
Originally Posted by theophan
The Holy Spirit works and is working even when we can't see the results.

Bob:

A very Lutheran statement!
Everyone blames the Lutherans.

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Dear Peter,

Actually, we EC's find you Romans quite blameworthy... smile

Alex

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Originally Posted by marusia
As for birth control lets get down to brass tacks whether that is used or not is their business. Just because a couple is married in the church doesn't mean their union will last any longer or be any stonger than those are a living common-law.

Not true...(for the record).

http://www.westernjournalism.com/wait-learn-actual-rate-divorce-church/

Doesn't "shock" me, but until spotting this minutes ago, didn't have any "hard data." Would have just had to go, "Huh uh..."

Further more, apparently the statistic drops to about 2 or 3% for couples who pray together on a regular basis.

No surprise there (for me) either.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Peter,

Actually, we EC's find you Romans quite blameworthy... smile

Alex

*Raises an offended eyebrow...and then smiles*


Last edited by Talon; 06/26/14 09:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Peter,

Actually, we EC's find you Romans quite blameworthy... smile

Alex
Roman? confused

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Melkite...Roman....

Same...uhh...universal Church.

wink

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^^ smile Talon.

Don't get me wrong, Alex; I understand that you were joking ... but I needed to say something anyhow, since there have been times when posters (not you of course) called me "not a real Eastern Catholic" (or something like that, don't remember the exact words), as a (non-joking) polemic against me.

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Actually, to be an Orthodox Catholic is to have the best of both worlds!

Cheers . . . and Happy Namesday!

Alex

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