The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Jayce, Fr. Abraham, AnonymousMan115, violet7488, HopefulOlivia
6,182 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 642 guests, and 112 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,530
Posts417,670
Members6,182
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Dear Michael,

Your post here is fascinating!

Could you elaborate on what you mean by your last sentence? It really shook me up (in a positive way).

Alex

Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 07/05/14 07:55 PM.
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
T
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by jjp
"And this, not necessarily to Byzantines as much as to their brother and sister Romans."

I appreciate your honesty, but disagree that we need to or should subordinate our spiritual health and the cause of ecumenism for the sake of Roman sensitivities.

That you suggest it only reaffirms my belief that the Eastern Catholic experiment is a non-starter and detrimental to the healing of the rift in Christendom, per Christ's hope and prayer for us all. Uniates playing second fiddle will never yield anything positive, no matter how you try to justify it. History bears that out, either you ignore it or are ignorant of it.

I think you're still misunderstanding me. I hope that's not my fault for not being very articulate.

It is not the role of Eastern Catholics to play "scape goat", or "punching bag" or "second fiddle" to Roman Catholics...Period. Not something I'm either arguing for or in favor of in any way, shape, or form.

In this particular thread, I am addressing a very specific single situation. It was a significant problem when it arose. It is also now in the process of being remedied - definitively, it appears. I'm all in favor of the remedy and of something of this nature never happening again.

But the simple fact of the matter is that it has. And the apostle Paul (I'm just the messenger), makes quite clear that there are certain circumstances in life in which, for the sake of the greater good, we can (and sometimes should) allow ourselves to be wronged...As I recall, Jesus said something similar (along the lines of turning the other cheek?).

This is an exhortation that is restricted to appropriate particular moments - usually temporary moments. It isn't meant to encourage any individual or group of individuals to be perpetual doormats or "second class citizens."

Interesting your assertion that the spiritual health of Byzantines should not have to be subordinate to Roman sensitivities because I see it in the opposite direction. It's precisely the spiritual health of Roman Catholics that concerns me simply because it would seem to be most at risk with a sudden reversal of this decades old ban. While fully agreeing that the married priesthood should be restored (as soon as is possible) for the East, I don't perceive the detriment to the spirituality of Eastern Catholics that it has not happened en toto, just yet. I grasp the reason for the initial fallout from the ban. I get that. But now, more than seven decades later when most Eastern Catholics have grown up in Church that has known only celibate priests...??

Byzantine Catholics are doing quite well for themselves spiritually at the moment, by all appearances from where I'm standing. Roman Catholics are a very different story, and I would hope that their weaker patrimony and thus overall spiritual health would be of some concern to you as a brother in Christ...??

God bless you either way, brother.

Last edited by Talon; 07/05/14 08:40 PM.
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
T
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Guys, guys . . .

You should all learn from the UGCC in this and other matters.

"It is easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission!"

There - now this thread can be closed grin

Alex

...Thus spaketh the voice of reason. The matter is forthwith settled and adjourned.

smile

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
T
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
Oh, wait. Hold on, Alex... wink

Originally Posted by MichaelO
I will probably be kicked off for saying this, but how can anyone say that the Ruthenian Church has a "very solid sense of identity as Byzantine Catholics" when it prohibits it's own liturgy and replaces it with one that is far more sensible to Roman Catholic sensibilities? You can go and read the threads here and in his book where Father Petras says the Ruthenian liturgy is not appropriate for Ruthenians in America and must be changed.

First I'm hearing of this. And I'm not sure if I'll have the opportunity any time soon to delve into this more deeply. Say a little more about here? Maybe a two or three paragraph summary?

Quote
The Greek Catholic people are the best in the world. But the uniate experiment is a colossal failure.

What is the "uniate experiment"?

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 714
Likes: 5
J
jjp Offline
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 714
Likes: 5
Originally Posted by Talon
But the simple fact of the matter is that it has. And the apostle Paul (I'm just the messenger), makes quite clear that there are certain circumstances in life in which, for the sake of the greater good, we can (and sometimes should) allow ourselves to be wronged...As I recall, Jesus said something similar (along the lines of turning the other cheek?).

Not so that the feelings of the one striking you are to be spared. Your misunderstanding of this teaching is troubling when used to justify the perpetuation of a great wrong.

Quote
This is an exhortation that is restricted to appropriate particular moments - usually temporary moments. It isn't meant to encourage any individual or group of individuals to be perpetual doormats or "second class citizens."
Nor is it meant to justify striking people, but you use it as such.

Quote
I see it in the opposite direction. It's precisely the spiritual health of Roman Catholics that concerns me simply because it would seem to be most at risk with a sudden reversal of this decades old ban.


You keep making this the priority with no explanation why it should be, and I keep pointing out that the commission of North American Catholic and Orthodox bishops (not to mention Pope John Paul II) say exactly the opposite: Eastern Catholics living the fullness of their patrimony is not a risk, not a scandal, not a threat, but a BLESSING to the Catholic communion of churches. There is no equivocation.

Were the introduction of that patrimony as dire as you imagine, you'd think that they would include mention if it in their official recommendation, wouldn't you?

You are free to disagree with them, and I've given up trying to convince you they are right, but hopefully this is illuminating to others.

That fellow Catholics would openly call for us to hide the righteous and blessed fulness of our faith for ANY reason is truly, truly sad.

Some bridge.


Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
T
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by Talon
But the simple fact of the matter is that it has. And the apostle Paul (I'm just the messenger), makes quite clear that there are certain circumstances in life in which, for the sake of the greater good, we can (and sometimes should) allow ourselves to be wronged...As I recall, Jesus said something similar (along the lines of turning the other cheek?).

Not so that the feelings of the one striking you are to be spared.

Not sure what you mean by that.

Quote
Your misunderstanding of this teaching is troubling when used to justify the perpetuation of a great wrong.

Sorry, what you keep missing is the fact that I don't want the ban perpetuated.

Quote
This is an exhortation that is restricted to appropriate particular moments - usually temporary moments. It isn't meant to encourage any individual or group of individuals to be perpetual doormats or "second class citizens."
Nor is it meant to justify striking people, but you use it as such.
[/quote]

I don't. You're not listening to me, brother.

Quote
I see it in the opposite direction. It's precisely the spiritual health of Roman Catholics that concerns me simply because it would seem to be most at risk with a sudden reversal of this decades old ban.


You keep making this the priority with no explanation why it should be...[/quote]

I've explained more than once why it should be - Roman Catholics have a weaker, more "anemic", if you will, patrimony and, with it, faith. My experiences with the Byzantine Church strongly suggest to me that they, on the other hand, can bear with injustice just a little bit longer much better than Roman Catholics can bear a sudden and significant shift in their perspective on the priesthood. That's why my concern is predominantly for Roman Catholics - because (in my mind at least) they're weaker creatures.

Quote
and I keep pointing out that the commission of North American Catholic and Orthodox bishops (not to mention Pope John Paul II) say exactly the opposite: Eastern Catholics living the fullness of their patrimony is not a risk, not a scandal, not a threat, but a BLESSING to the Catholic communion of churches. There is no equivocation.

And what you're not hearing me say for some reason is that I completely agree. I'd say that again, but if you're not hearing it the first four or five times...? smile

Quote
Were the introduction of that patrimony as dire as you imagine, you'd think that they would include mention if it in their official recommendation, wouldn't you?

For the final time, it's not the introduction of the patrimony itself that's the concern - it's re-introducing it with a flash, rather than easing into it.

Should the commission have spoken to the risks associated with reintroducing the patrimony too quickly if there are/were any? Not necessarily, no. Again, they're recommendation is that the full patrimony should be restored and they're right. They made no mention of how quickly that patrimony should be restored. And they made their recommendation to Rome, whom everyone knows does not ever do anything quickly. Therefore, it's not hard to imagine this commission thinking to themselves, "Well, what we recommend is xyz...Here's to hoping it actually happens some time this century."

Quote
That fellow Catholics would openly call for us to hide the righteous and blessed fulness of our faith for ANY reason is truly, truly sad.

...Yeah? Indeed! Which is exactly why the ban is in the process of being demolished as we speak. Praise God for His grace.

God bless you.

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 714
Likes: 5
J
jjp Offline
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 714
Likes: 5
Originally Posted by Talon
For the final time, it's not the introduction of the patrimony itself that's the concern - it's re-introducing it with a flash, rather than easing into it.

That distinction and the mentality behind it is equally offensive, it's only a matter of degrees.

Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0