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#40778 04/09/05 05:45 PM
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I heard there were shouts for instant canonization during the Pope's funeral. However, I have been told that the only person that can "short-cut" the procedure is another pope, Correct?

#40779 04/09/05 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by Turpius:
I heard there were shouts for instant canonization during the Pope's funeral. However, I have been told that the only person that can "short-cut" the procedure is another pope, Correct?
Well

As I understand it it has to be a Pope to canonise someone - so they are a wee bit previous .

But yes - I understand you are correct.

Let's first get a Pope and then start talking.

Anhelyna

#40780 04/09/05 06:22 PM
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I second Anhelyna!

And the "short-cut" would involve the waiver of the 5-year waiting period after the death of the person.

Only the Pope can grant such a waiver as Pope John Paul II did, I think, to the canonization process of Mother Teresa of Calcutta, who is said to have effected a miracle right after, or a short time before, her death!

Amado

#40781 04/09/05 08:55 PM
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Let's all remember that canonization doesn't make people saints, it just officially recognizes that they are saints and worthy of veneration by the faithful.

I stated in an earlier thread that I've already started praying to John Paul the Great and I just heard Father Benedict Groeschel say the same today. I also read somewhere that the order of nuns started by Mother Teresa, The Missionaries of Charity are already praying to him also.

If it is not proper at this time to do so at least I am in good company. smile

In Christ, Bill

#40782 04/09/05 09:32 PM
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He'll always be a Saint in my heart. I imagine he will be a strong candidate for cannonization.

#40783 04/10/05 02:34 AM
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One may pray to whomsoever one pleases. But one may not hold public services in honor of someone not as yet beatified (the difference between beatification and canonization is purely folkloric).
Moreover, since John Paul II is not a martyr, the requirement for a miracle remains in place. Rome does not accept moral miracles for this purpose.

Incognitus

#40784 04/10/05 09:26 AM
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Dear Incognitus,

...and the miracle of a televised Mass on every channel imaginable, in every country imaginable, and the explanation and discussion in a positive light of Christian doctrine by the secular, God and Church hating media, was not a miracle?!?!?! wink

(I know, I know, it won't cut it with the 'cause for sainthood' fellows, but if one thinks about it, it was a true 'modern' miracle!) cool smile cool

Fondly,
In Christ our Lord,
Alice

#40785 04/10/05 10:40 AM
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I think that the bloodless collapse of the Communist governments in Eastern Europe - a collapse ignited by this Pope - that was miraculous.

As to the "God-hating" news media: it's hard to remember an occasion when "the media" exhibited disrespect for this Pope - let alone God-hatred. Maybe another miracle will be the dropping of such melodramatic rhetoric.

#40786 04/10/05 01:12 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by djs:
As to the "God-hating" news media: it's hard to remember an occasion when "the media" exhibited disrespect for this Pope - let alone God-hatred. Maybe another miracle will be the dropping of such melodramatic rhetoric.
The media has exhibited lots of disrespect for the Holy Father and Catholicism over the years. Even during this week in which the world celebrated the life of Pope John Paul II some in the media had to provide what they called �balance� in stating the failure of the pope to find a way to respect women by allowing women priests, artificial contraception and abortion rights. Some (not all) commentators portrayed him as a nice old man who stood up to the Nazis and Commies but failed to bring the Church into line with the current moral values of American liberalism.

One of the female CNN commentators blamed Pope John Paul II for the Rwandan genocide. (She left the distinct impression that if the Pope had not insisted on evangelizing Africa and sticking to outdated moral values the genocide would not have happened). Another CNN commentator suggested that the Catholic Church was in league with the Nazis to exterminate the Jews because it did not speak up forcefully enough against the holocaust. Still another on MCNBC blamed the pope for the AIDS epidemic in Africa because he refused to endorse the use of condoms.

Larry King had on three guests one night last week: a priest, a rabbi and a Protestant minister. At one point King changed the subject to the priestly sex scandal (and not just in a �should the pope have done more� perspective which would be legitimate). Thankfully, as the priest started to respond the rabbi jumped in and said: �Mr. King, such a topic is not appropriate at a time like this.�

There are countless other similar stories from this week for those who wish to acknowledge them. Some (maybe most) were rooted in ignorance. A few were rooted in old fashioned anti-Catholicism. A number were rooted in the hatred of the pope�s rejection of modern liberal relative morality.

Most of the attempts of the media to bash the pope or Catholicism this week failed before they even started. The power of the truth of the holiness and goodness of Pope John Paul II left them powerless.

#40787 04/10/05 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by alice:
Dear Incognitus,

...and the miracle of a televised Mass on every channel imaginable, in every country imaginable, and the explanation and discussion in a positive light of Christian doctrine by the secular, God and Church hating media, was not a miracle?!?!?! wink

(I know, I know, it won't cut it with the 'cause for sainthood' fellows, but if one thinks about it, it was a true 'modern' miracle!) cool smile cool

Fondly,
In Christ our Lord,
Alice
Alice, you are a beacon of truth.

#40788 04/10/05 02:07 PM
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Dear DJS,

Quote
Maybe another miracle will be the dropping of such melodramatic rhetoric.
As your post was referring to mine, I would remind you that this could be considered not only uncharitable but mocking.

You have made your dislike of me abundantly clear, although I do not dislike you. wink

Perhaps for the sake of CHRIST and this forum, and in respect for the period of Great Lent that we are in, you could keep your sarcastic remarks about my style of writing and my opinions, to yourself? This is not the first time that your sarcasm towards my writing has hurt me.

Thank you, and God bless,

Please remember that the most difficult call we have by our good and loving God, is to love one another. smile

Sincerely,
Alice

#40789 04/10/05 02:11 PM
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Dear Administrator,

If you conflate "balance" and "bashing" then of course you will see lots of disrespect. But by that standard, those on this forum who have criticized bishops appointed by JPII, or not being sufficiently pro-active in the sex abuse scandal etc. are also engaged in bashing. Like those who may criticize this Pope's policies on how to quell the AIDS epidemic in Africa, I think that this Pope has been right and the critics wrong. But such disagreements need not be elevated to bashing, or to be considered to be motivated by villany. That is the melodrama.

Was King disresepctful? First, on the occasion of the death of well-known people there is typically some review of their life, legacy, and unfinished business undertaken by the press. This requires balance; one could hardly expect hagiography, or the sweeping of all problems under the rug? It is a bit much to expect that from the secular media - for Pope, or King, or president, and so on. Again if you call that bashing, then I think you are overly sensitive. I think King's question is completely legitimate; I think the response to it was perfect. Overall, I cannot fathom why this exchange is grounds for grave complaint.

I don't for a moment dipute the idea, btw, that the Catholic church is subject to unfair, typically grossly misinformed criticism. THe holocaust, like the inquisition and the Galileo case, has morphed into cliche. But I was commenting on the talk of "God-hatred" used to characterize the media. A charge of such enormous gravity is not appropriate to comments that he failed to bring American Catholics in line with the Church teachings. Or Larry King's question, ...

#40790 04/10/05 02:22 PM
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Dear Alice,

You have very strong opinions that you like to post. Sometimes I disagree with them and respond. I regret that you feel that represents a personal dislike; that simply is not true.

I use the word melodrama not to mock and not to be sarcastic. The idea emerged in the Schiavo case, where people, rather than working effectively to prevent tragedy, were all to eager to convert the story to melodrama. This idea was from disputations March 28.
http://disputations.blogspot.com/2005_03_27_disputations_archive.html

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I think almost everyone would agree that the story of Terri Schiavo is a tragedy. What I don't get, then, is why it�s being told as a melodrama.

The key difference here is that, while a tragedy doesn't need one, a melodrama absolutely insists on a villain; the more villainous the better. And this story, if told a certain way, has a villain straight out of Central Casting: a murderous, cold-hearted, avaricious lecher, a master criminal who will never rest until all evidence of his fiendish crimes is destroyed.

While we're at it, we can throw in a few more stock villains -- the crooked judge and the devil's advocate -� to make the story more emotionally charged.

Meanwhile, those who support the objectively grave evil of preventing Terri Schiavo from receiving ordinary care tell a melodramatic tale with hypocritical politicians and lunatic anti-abortionists as the villains.

Now, it may be that some of those involved in this story are villains. I don't know enough to say for sure, and I don't think the vast majority of those who tell each other this story as a melodrama know enough, either. Nor will it do to say, "Just look at the facts;" it's not the facts, but the look that determines who the villain is.

If the role of villain is the key difference in telling a story as tragedy or melodrama, the key difference in hearing it is emotional response. A melodrama stirs up desire for heroic action, action the audience itself joins in, if only through cheers and hisses. We expect, perhaps even demand, a happy ending in which the heroine is rescued from the villain's clutches.

Seeing a tragedy, by contrast, is a much less active experience. The audience may suffer along with the protagonist, but there's no real hope for anything but defeat. You may be moved to fight against injustice, but how do you fight against bad luck?

It's easy to see why someone who wants people to take action when they hear his story would tell a melodrama, and I think we can accept that most people who present this story with villains do so in good faith. There are risks to this, however, that I'm not sure everyone who�s telling the melodrama appreciates.

For one thing, it puts the focus of a critical audience -� one willing to listen to what is said, but not prepared to accept everything that is said on the authority of the storyteller -� on secondary matters: Is this person a villain? How should I decide this? What if he isn't a villain? And what if he is? If the problem is a crooked judge, say, then there's no need to wonder whether the laws aren't rotten as well, and what to do about the former is a much different question than what to do about the latter.

Another risk is that it demands a large emotional response from the audience. If the audience is not prepared to make that response, the story has failed. And even if it is, will it be prepared when the next such story is told? Will it even listen the next time, particularly if this story does not have a happy ending?

Perhaps the biggest risk, though, is that looking at this case as a melodrama makes it difficult if not impossible to look at it as a tragedy. The fact that preventing a patient from receiving ordinary care is objectively immoral and always wrong gets lost in all the other facts and allegations. The impression may be that objective immorality by itself isn't enough to make an action wrong, if indeed a case for the objective immorality can get made without wandering into charges of villainy. Throwing in yet another argument when the ones you've already made don't convince your audience is an understandable impulse, but the result may be that your audience will never understand your first and most fundamental argument.
I think that this is important food for thought; it is what was on my mind when you talked about God-hating media. It is a theme, better stated here than in any of my posts, that is recurrent in my posting: the extreme way people think about their opponents in art, education, media, politics, and every aspect of life.

#40791 04/10/05 02:32 PM
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There was one other stream that motivated me to post. A paragraph from Weigel's column in WSJ abut JPII.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=


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That is why John Paul relentlessly preached genuine tolerance: not the tolerance of indifference, as if differences over the good didn't matter, but the real tolerance of differences engaged, explored, and debated within the bond of a profound respect for the humanity of the other. Many were puzzled that this Pope, so vigorous in defending the truths of Catholic faith, could become, over a quarter-century, the world's premier icon of religious freedom and inter-religious civility. But here, too, John Paul II was teaching a crucial lesson about the future of freedom: Universal empathy comes through, not around, particular convictions. There is no Rawlsian veil of ignorance behind which the world can withdraw, to subsequently emerge with decency in its pocket.
JPII could stand forcefully for truth without dehumanizing his opponents. He could disagree without demonizing. He allowed them to be human beings; he did not violate their humanity. To do so, in fact would be a sin against the God who created these sinful creatures just as he created us sinful creatures.

And because of this he was effective. Polarization, while sometimes expedient, ultimately tends to be counterproductive. For example, the ongoing demonization of and threats against the judiciary in the aftermath of the Schiavo case drives a wedge rather than helping to develop a consensus on simple matters that could help immediately (e.g., parents and spouse get equal say - already law in ~five states).

#40792 04/10/05 02:50 PM
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Dear DJS,

I don't think that my opinions are particularly strong, in that they are the same opinions that I am hearing from every single Christian I know, Catholic and Orthodox! I would like to continue, but I won't. I don't want to disturb the peace that I am feeling during these days after confession and in mourning for a holy man.

Suffice it to say that, in my humble opinion, sarcasm is dehumanizing, hurtful and insulting to another, in an of itself, and that disagreement is never a good reason for it, atleast in Christian circles.

Also, I was directly discoursing with my friend Incongitus. If he would like to disagree with me, he is more than welcome to.

Peace in Christ Jesus, smile
Alice

P.S. In charity I will honor you by saying that I totally agree with this response...

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I think that the bloodless collapse of the Communist governments in Eastern Europe - a collapse ignited by this Pope - that was miraculous

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